SPEECH BY PRIME MINISTER.

Press, Volume XLIX, Issue 14832, 25 November 1913, Page 9

SPEECH BY PRIME MINISTER.

The Prime Minister said he had no comment to offer upon tho announcement of the chairman. He was only made aware that the statement was to be made about two minutes beforo tho chairman took the Chair. He was glad to notice the spirit in which the statement had been accepted by tho Leader of the Opposition. Sir Joseph Ward said that there was no parallel between what had taken place on the present occasion and what took nlaco on the historic occasion in 1881. From this view he dissented. The question beforo the House in 1881 was representation and so it was to-day. Ho might say that he had read with.a great deal of care and interest all the speeches made in the House on the Representation Bill in 1881. He had also read with great interest tho •speeches then made by Sir Maurice

O'Rorke and Mr A. P. Seymour (Chairman of Committees). One of them (Mi- Seymour, he thought) stated' that the obitruction had gone on for 48 hours, and that it was, therefore time, and the duty of the Chairman of committees, to take action. On the present occasion obstruction had lasted for a great deal moro than 48 hours Tho Hon. A. T. Ngata: Fifty and a halt hours.

♦i. 1 ? 0 - Prime Minister: "Ah, yes, but that docs not include the time'wasted on tho motion to introduce the Second Ballot Repeal BUI." A much more serious obstruction had taken place on tins Bill tnan took place in 1881. He had also road tho remarks made by Mr Speaker Brand in tho Imperial Parliament when a- deadlock took place m 1831.

Sir Joseph Ward: We know all about that.

The Prime Minister: Both the Speakers took tho viviv that the Standing Orders were intended for tho protection of minorities to a certain extent, but that they wore never framed to enable n minority to prevent the will of a majority being given effect to. Ibis, he was sorry to say, was what appeared to be intended* by quite n number of members in this House. Ho was not going to express any opinion on tlie statement mado by the Chairman of Committees, but ho had not the very slightest doubt that both the Chairman of Committees and tho Speaker (Mr Lang) would do what they believed to bo their duty. Witregard to the effer made by the Opposition on Friday night and Saturday morning, that if the House were adjourned nntil 2.30 p.m. on Monday the short title would be allowed to pass, in what better position would the Government havo been if the short title had been agreed to? Surely the short title of any Bill should be "agreed to, not in several days, but in several minutes.

Sir Joseph Ward: The short title i* not yet passed. Mr Russell: - What have you gained? The Prime Minister: 1 didn't say we havo trained anything, but I would ask the Opposition what they have gained ? Mr Malcolm said that when the second ballot proposals came before the House ho expected to be as much assisted by the Rood sense of members of tho Hoiiso as by his own statement. In his efforts to restrict the discussion within a reasonable timo in a relevant manner, ho had taken this course, with a feeling of very deep responsibility, nnd from no wish whatever to act in an arbitrary manner. . Consideration of the * Legislature Amendment Bill in Committee was resumed at 3.2 p.m. Tho short title (clause 1) and tho second clause were passed without discussion in about half a minute. This was tho whole of tho Bill as it stood. SECOND BALLOT REPEAL MOVED. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher, the Minister in charge of tho Bill, moved a new clause providing for the repeal of tho second oallot. • The Hon. A. T. Ngata: What about, preferential voting; ? Sir Joseph Ward complained that the Minister had given no explanation of the Government's abandonment of its announced intention of providing a substitute for the second ballot. The Minister in charge of the Bill had stated in 1911 that he favoured tho repeal of the Second Ballot Bill because no favoured a system of proportional representation. He also said on that occasion that he did not want to go back to the old system. In the same year Mr Massey had declared for a system of preferential voting. In the Budget of 1912 the Government had said "Tho Government is fully sensible of tho great necessity for electoral reform, and in due course v measure will bo submitted by which the system of second ballot will bo repealed and another method of election established." Sir Joseph W T ard went on to contend that in bringing down a proposal to repeal the second ballot without providing a substitute, there had been ft breach of. faith with the whole of the peoplo.of this country. (Government denials.) Hon. members Sitting beside the Government were deceiving their constituents. <More dissent.) Had any ono of thorn dissented from the statements mado by the present Ministers when they said that they favoured another system m place of the second ballot? '* . Mr J. Bollard: Here is one. * Another member: Here is another. Sir Joseph Ward said that if the Bill went through the House—and »■*•«« not thron"*- yet—ho believed that there were thousands of moderate people in the country who wero not .strongly wedded to either side who would regard the action taken as an infliction to be imposed upon them by a minority vote. NO BREACH OF FAITH.

The Primo Minister denied that the pr"_-_\ for tho repeal of the second hnllot represented a breach of faith on the part "ofmexnbers of the Housejvzth their constituents. Substitute or no substitute, if there.was one Question with * regard to which the people and candidates at last election were iairly unanimous it wad the repeal of tho second ballot. He did not know of a single electorate in which point waa raided in which the candidate did not pledge himself to the repeal of the second ballot, with the possible exception of the electorate represented _by the Leader of the Opposition. He challenged hon. members on the other side of the Houso to they had supported the Second Ballot Act as it now existed. '~,"' Mr Ell: Well. I did. '•■■,, The Prime Ministar: "Well, the hon. gentleman as usual is the exception that proves tho rule." The people had always been suspicious with to tho opevation of the Second Ballot Act, even from the first day of its passing into law. The people Knew, after the experience of one election, that it was a costly Act, •Ho-w-s not say bow much the operation of the Second Ballot Act had cost this country, but it had cost a very large sum. Another thing was that between the 6rst and second ballot business was practically suspended in the districta concerned. and in the electorates where a second balot took p»ace little else was talked about during tha week The second ballot had broug-t m a wretched and humiliating system of bargaining. There was not a member in the House, and very few people in the country, who took an interest in electoral matters, who did not know that the introduction of the second ballot had had a demoralising effect, whilst tip to tho present it had given no advantage to either Party—one side had gained as many members by it as the other side. Through all the years of tho late Mr Seddbn's leadership be had scored huge victories without the aid of the second ballot, but immediately the second ballot came into operation, the result was disastrous to the sc-called Party. He (Mr Massey) would have thought the so-oalJed Liberal Party would have done their best to get the wretched thing off the Statute Book. Ho could not understand the object of the resistance to the present Bill, even from ft -arty point of new. The excuse tney offered wns that no substitute was being provided for the second, ballot. Ho admitted that in this session the Government did not propose to bring down & substitute, but the Government •.-fledged themselves, and to the House had already dono so this session, to lay an Electoral Bill before Parliament next session. And then if the House felt so inclined, it could have the opnortumty of providing a substitute for the second ballot. If a majority of members were in favour of a substitute the substitute conld be put, intn the Bill. He hoped the debate would be ended without undue delay. »«a that an effort would be made to bring the session to a close. THOSE "WRETCHED BARGAINS. Mr G W. Russell said that the Government had promised this year to introduce an Electoral Reform B» u - A Member: So they have, in the Upper Houso.

Mr 'Russell' 1 "That is not an Eiectoial nuf" • tie said tiiat the (sovernuient .*„ "been lnd- 1 -** 1 >° **>**& ius mind as ffae X <* tae Grey ana Sat it tr«« also hurrying on the repeal oi the second ballot witnout a suusti?i.*„ bec&«#> the Lyttelton by-election wi 'coW on * in , regam to the Prime Alin-Ster _. remarks reg.roing the '-wretched bargains ' arising out of tbe second ballot, Mr Russeil said that the Ambers in * he House to-day who were Sort" the Red Federation would nofhave been there but for the bar°rL made by the Massey Party. Their chickens had come homo to roost. Mr Payne: -hey are laying away, °*Ur Pearce read an analysis of thc result of the second ballot in 1911, showing that the Liberal and Reform en ins through the second ballot were cv n, and that the nett result was that the Labour Party had gained three scats that they otherwise would not hav<» gained—two (Grey Lynn and Otakiffrom tlie Libera- and one (Wellington South) from the Reform Party. Sir Witty, said that tho Government had made bargains at the last general elections in Grey Lynn, Wangonui, and Otaki, but when a bargain was made by the Liberal Party in tho case of Grey, there was at once a howl and a ory'fur the repeal of tbe second ballot . at"all i-ost. '.. , , „ Mr Hanan said that the Government must think that its only chance of being returned to power was by the splitting of votes. Mr Ell said he favoured a STstom under which the elections would be settled in one day. but he preferred tho cccnnci ballot to tho possibility of minority representation. .Mr M-cOnlhi-i said that be was re- ♦ iT-ied to rewnl thft second lmllofc. He was not however, to th<** ballot without providing a j»ub-titnte\ THE LABOUR PARTY. Mr Robertson said he felt tho object the Government had in view whs to prevent the coming into cxistenco of the Labour Party—tho party which they feared more, than any other party at "the present time. Mr Forbes said the new clause was a piece of political strategy, having special reference to tho Lyttelton byelection. Mr Mas&ey: The propo-ial to repeal the seconfl ballot was introduced at least a fortnight beforo tho vacancy at Lyttelton occurred. Mr Mac Donald said he believed that no two parties could represent all the people. Ho favoured preferential Voting. Mr Russell spoke in favour of the sih-le transferable vote. Messrs Te Rangilr'roa, Ngata, and Wilford opposed tho clause. Tho dinner adjournment was then taken. : CLAUSE READ A SECOND TIME. The speech-making on thc motion for the second reading of tbe new clauso broko'_own five manutes after tho supper adjournment. A division was then taken, with the result that tho motion was carried by 30 votes to 2G. DIVISION LIST. Tho following was the division list on tho second reading of the clause:— Ayes (36).—Messrs Bell, J. Bollard, R. F. Bollard, Bradney, Buick, Campboll, Coates, Dickson. Elcott, Fisher, Fraser, Guthrie, Harris, Herdman, 'Herries, Huntor, Lee, Mander, Massey, A. K. Newman, E. Newman, Nosworthy, Okey, Pearce, Pomare, Reed. R. H. Rhodes, T. H. Rhodes, Scott, i. H. Smith Stathan. Sykes, G. M. Thomson, Wilkinson, Wilson, Young, Noes (20).—Messrs Atmore. Brown, Buxton, Colvin, Craigic, Davie, Ell, Glover, Hanan, Hindmarsh, McCallum, Mac Donald, . Ngata, Parata, Payne, Poland, Rungihiroa, Robertson, Russell, Seddon, R. W. Smith, Veitch, Webb, Witty. Sir Joaoph Ward, Sir James Carroll.

PAIRS. Ayes.—Messrs Anderson, Allen, Hine, and' Sir Walter Buchanan. _• • ■ .'. Noes. ■-. Messrs. Wilford,. Buddo, Forbes nnd Isitt, Tho Hon. A. T. Ngata then said he wished to moro that progress bo reThe Chairman: Considering all t the circumstances, I must regard, such a motion as being moved in a spirit of mockery, and I cannot accept it. Mr Ngiita: Wed, then, I move that you do leave the chair. Is that in ordet? ■ T < "•_ i *_', + The Chairman: I must rule that out of order in tho same way. Tlie debate ou tho question that this clause be a, "clause of the Bill was then taken, Mr Malcolm' stating that discussion on the motion would be allowed to ft rcaonable extent. Mr Russell, in condemning the new clause, said thai both the ''Now Zealand Herald" and the Daily Times," newspapers (supporting mc Government, and two of the ablest journal in New Zealand, had declared against the Cabinet's action in this matter. He said that the Government n_"hb get the Bill through before tho cession closed, ~ut it was not through yet./ ANOTHER WARNING GIVEN. At five minutes to eleven the chairman reminded the speakers that they had been repeating themselves and one another a great deal, but he said that beforo rigidly enforcing Standing Orders in this - stage of the debate, no would allow a few more speeches. Mr Webb denied that there had been any bargaining between himself and the Liberal Party in regard to the Grey election.

AMENDMENTS REJECTED. At 11.25 p.m. Sir Joseph Ward moved the following proviso to the clause:—"That this repeal shall not apply before the next general election after the passing of this Act. This was lost by 34 votes to 26. Mr Russell moved the addition of tho following proviso:—"Provided that this section shall not come into force until the Ist day of March, 1910. This was lost by 34 votes to 24. Mr Ell moved another proviso, to the effect that the section should not come into force until approved by a referendum of the people, to bo taken on tho day of the next general election. This was lost by 34 votes to 20. Shortly after half-past twelve, the Chairman again enforced tho rule m regard to tedious repetition, and several members went down like ninepins in quick succession. .. The division on tho motion to add the second ballot repeal clause to the .-ill was taken a 1 a.m. The clause was added by 33 votes to 23. Tho Government accepted an amendment moved by Mr Eli allowing the Representation Commissioners to vary tho quota in urban areas from one hundred to two hundred' and fifty. Another amendment by Mr EU to reduce the country quota from 28 per cent, to 15 per cent, was lost-by 41 votes to 14. ' Another amendment to bring the secondary towns into line with the four large centres in regard to the quota was lost by 43 votes to 9. The Bill was still under consideration when the telegraph office closed at 2 a.m.