PARLIAMENTARY.

Auckland Star, Volume VI, Issue 1695, 24 July 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY.

(FROM OUR SPECIAL CORRESPON-

DENT)

DEBATE OH ADDRESS IN REPLY. [Continued from Last Night's Star ]

Mr Thompson (Clutha) succeeded Mr Murraj (Otago) in opposing the address.

Then Mr McGillivray (Riverton), in a characteristic style, as if thumping a pulpit, proved that as a moribund parson often does the best action of his whole life, so this dying Parliament, in destroying the provinces, would be remembered to posterity for ever.

He wa3 succeeded by Mr Williams, of the Bay of Islands, who spoke briefly and solemnly, but effectively. He said he intended to vote for the address. He was one of the minority who voted against Mr Vogel's resolutions. He did so because he did not believe they went far enough. He would vote with the Government.

Mr Pyke (Wakatipuj said the language of the address was such that he could vote for the reply without committing himself to anything. None in this House was a more decided abolitionist. He had been so 13 years. He believed Provincial Councils were a curse to the colony. He had given his adherence to the separation movement because it proposed the abolition of Councils, but if the speech by the words "at once" meant to say that this moribund Parliament should determine the question without consulting the people, the Government would have no more uncompromising opponent than himself, and he must vote in the ranks of the Provincialists, with whom he had no sympathy whatever. Pause in the Debate-— The Question Nearly PutAfter Mr Pyke, a long pause ensued. The Speaker asked if any other gentleman wished to speak. The silence continued, and members looked at one another. Sir George Grey beckoned to Mr Bunny, who with skill in strategy was waiting. The Speaker was putting the question, when Mr Bunny's "SIR," rang through the House, and members waked up and shook out their ears. His opening words were intended to smooth down asperities, and he affected to show that the matter was a mere moonshine, and it was of no significance whether the reply were passed or not. He would prefer to cut it down, and merely thank the Government, but it did not signify. Then Mr Bunny went at the railways, and said each member could only see what was before his own eyes. He only knew that of Wellington. "Call you that a railway ?" said Mr Bunny. "Atoy! "mere toy! but a most expensive toy." Then he went at the profits of these toys, and illustrated his subject from the necessity for seizing the capitation. The whole railway system he said bad been worked for the purpose of bringing out sucking engineers like Passmore, and sucking station managers at a great expense to be educated at our own expense up to their! duties ; and taking any part of the colony, he would defy anyone to find that the system did not shew the utter unfitness-of Mr Passmore for the position which he occupies. Referring to the loan and immigration correspondence, he said those negotiators should have washed their dirty linen in the back streets. On abolition, he said that if the object was to put into the colonial chest what used to be used for provincial purposes —if the question was railways against roads and bridges,—it would be disastrous to the colony.

The Hon. Mr. Reynolds replied with great brevity that this was not the time to discuss the question, and would not be till measures were brought down.

Then Mr. Montgomery, of Christchurch, expressed his determination to do his utmost against any decision on abolition before an appeal was made to the people. He spoke strongly on the failure of the management of railways, which appears to have a warm corner in every member's heart. He referred to the loan correspondence aa a disgraceful

revelation, quoting one assertion of tin Crown agents, according to which Mr Vob»| admitted the colony to be in a meHa, and'l must get out the best way it could. He de clared his_ intention to make a very deter mined resistance to abolition. Mr. McGlashan (Roslyn, Otago), wh.oig a 9 moat useful servitor of the powers"/J^mP succeeded. He declared he knew *££**$$ sition wanted only a delay, and if so it wiC better io adjourn till Tuesday. He t& en launched out in a tirade against Provincial Governments, winding up his peroration by characterising them as " nasty, dirty liftf! Government !!" Mr Ward, the new member from Marlborough, accepted the Government declara" tion that the address meant nothing, andaj such would vote for it. Mr Wales felt that the constituenciei should have an opportunity of having - voice in the matter. They should have th« representation amended, and then appeal to them. He supported the address. Another Pause and Confusion. After he had finished, a quarter remained till dinner hour, and as it was known Sir George Grey meant to speak, the Opp6 B itio n felt fidgety to keep up the debate till that hour. Messengers were rushing to and fro Hopes wene entertained that the steamei would arrive, bringing Macandrew, with big sturdy lieutenant, Reid. The interest was in, tense, the Government party being well organ! ised and quiescent, the Opposition unorganig, ed, undecided, and fidgety. Their tactics were clearly not in order. At last Mr Brandon got up and talked all round about for a While expressing generally dissatisfaction, but with' what, the acoustic peculiarities of the Honse prevented my discovering. He sat down and five minutes remained. ' Mr Dignan has come to the rescue, it being his maiden speech in this House. He waste, ceived with around of applause. He has made an excellent point, in Auckland being in a better position than the colony in living within its means. He was speaking quietly and well when Mr Speaker announced dinner. Speech "by Sir G-eorge Grey. On resuming, every gallery was crowded to suffocation. It was known that Sir Geo, Grey would speak. Sir George Grey rose amid enthusiastic cheering. He said that it was with a sense of great responsibility he proceeded to address the House, for a more momentous period than the present in the history of the country had never existed. The matters contained in the address which it was proposed they should adopt demanded their most serious consideration, becanse they affected the welfare of the whole of New Zealand, and the address demanded their utmost consideration before any other measure was brought before the House, and before they started on the momentous course upon which they were about to enter. He had demanded, therefore, as a right, that they should obtain time to consider and look into the address before they adopted it. He had simply performed his duty to his constituents and the people of the country, He gathered from the address, or the pro« posed address, now that he had perused it, that the Government intended to pass a new constitution, under which the people of New Zealand were in future to be governed; and he also understood that the Government intended to introduce a new Representation Act during the present session. He gathered that from his Excellency's speech, but wished to be under no mistake, and desired the Government to say distinctly whether that was their intention.

Sir Donald McLean said it was the inten« tion of the Government so to do.

Sir George Grey proceeded : He took that to be a distinct affirmation on the part of the Government that they considered the present Parliament did not represent the people of New Zealand ; that was the only inference drawn. Yet they sought to force upon the people a constitution made by those who did not represent the inhabitants of New Zealand. Could it be possible that Ministers would force a measure on the public with a! House so constituted—a Hcuse which did not represent the people ? A more monstrous proposition was never made. It was conceded the inhabitants were not fairly represented. He challenged them to commit such • flagrant injustice. Before the constitutional measure was passed, they must nave each district equally represented. They would have no pocket boroughs. There would not be three members for one district with one for another district of equal tize, and some none at all. He maintained they must give each district a I proper share to act justly and fairly towards the people of New Zealand and allow » return of representatives proportionate' to population. In>such circumstances it would : be monstrous to meddle with the Constitution that the people of New Zealand enjoyed. What was the result of this unequal representation ? That the gentlemen who occupied the Government Benches didnot represent the people of the country. The hon. member for Timaru had told them;' it was impossible for the House to get a ; better Government.

Mr Stafford here said he had stated it would be impossible for him to get a Government who would more thorougMy exprese his views.

Sir George Grey: " More thoroughly express his views ! Is this what Parliament has come to?" The member for Timaru told them that the whole object of the people should be to return men" to give expression to his views and opinions. Was this to be -the whole object of Parliamentary Government ? What had they come to? Was this for • what they had struggled to return Governments and Parliaments ; to represent the views of one man! It was not so ; and gentlemen who occupied the Treasury Benches did not in any way represent the constituencies of the colony. Take the Premier for example. He jW placed in the Upper House on the nomina« tion of the Ministry of which he was noir tho head, and this was done to serve a purpose, and such was the nature of the change! taking place that it was difficult to foretell what would be the next move. Perhaps they might have the member for TimarO (Mr Stafford) next to adorn the Ministry. He would confess he should be glad to see'such a change. But to return to the Premier: Who would pretend that a person so nominated could possibly represent the people! Not being required to be a wealthy man as is usual in the Upper House at home; BO" being required to give any pledge to assure people that he would endeavour to hand down to posterity those institutions, on the sustenance of which depended the welfare of the country ; what interest could such a person have in the sountry? Sir George proceeded to review the position of • the several Minister?, and the Upper House, shewing that they did not represent the people. Even the Governor was appoint** externally and on political considerations, influenced by the powers connected Vx*^s? monetary institutions of New Zealand. Witt such representation as this, the present *»S no time to impose a constitution on the people of New Zealand that was utterly abhorrent to them. Parliament was first abou* to expire ; it did not, as was admitted of Ministers in the address before the House properly represent the people of New Zealand, and they would be faithless to their trust, faithless to the .P^P* and faithless to the country, if /they imposed this constitution on them.1 '** •' this Parliament did not proceed to impose sucn a constitution it was not done by the peopl themselves or their representatives, "Jr would be done by an external body by JM Parliament of Great Britain without tM wishes of the people being consulted.^*?* - people would have no choice if the^Bty* forced such a constitution, aDd most^ : t their rights would be denied them JfSj.one of the most wicked attempts M?f|||k ever been made to rob the people *»rJi©|§:

rights. He would be able to shew, actually at the present moment in the land, a power in the shape of a wealthy institution whichcould have any person it chose appointed Governor to support their interests. Referring to the Js monetary instution he said : " You have an * ex-Governor in the same establishment and you have the whole of that interest with its use of two millions of our money used, at tho present time agaist the people of this country. Those powers may be justly used, and I admit, beyond all doubt, that the great money institution to which I refer has been of the greatest possible use use to the country in times gone past; it had incurred great rises and had been the means of establishing many men usefully and honorably in different paths of life. Though this use of power might be repugnant to the great mass of people interested in that establishment, it was undoubted that this measure was proposed at the instance of that institution in order that from the land fund of the Middle Island greater security might be afforded for the moneys advanced for carrying on the policy of the Government. The Governor had committed himself to a line of policy from which he could not recede. His assent to all the measures submitted must be a certainty. In such peculiar circumstances the Assembly should pass such an Act as would delegate to the people the duty of choosing under what constitution they would be governed. Let a new basis of representation be fixed ; let Ministers lay before the country their proposals, and whatever the country chose he and his party would assist in carrying out the people's expressed wishes. If the Government would not accept the suggestion and persisted, they would find there were men who would not submit to it, and he firmly believed they would be right in resisting such unlawful proceedings. It would be unlawful according to constitutional law that powers once granted to the people could not be taken away except by that Legislature which granted the powers. Then as to statutory law, the Act on which the Government was proceeding was never intended to be wrested so as to be applied to the purposes proposed. Parliament had been deceived into passing the Act, and at the time it was passed into law it was Bever intended to use it for the purposes of robbing the people of their representative institutions which they now enjoyed. The term, "abolishing the provinces," as used in the Act, never contemplated interfering with representative institutions. Ihe present Chief Justice had laid this down distinctly. He had told them that there were five provinces of New Zealand, the boundaries of which were fixed by proclamation, and the meaning of the term —" abolition of provinces," mentioned in that Act, simply meant altering those boundaries. This he had illustrated by instancing the case of Canterbury and Westland. The moment Westland had been proclaimed a province, the Canterbury previously in existence has been abolished, but had not been deprived of its representative institutions. If great manifest privileges were granted in specific terms to the people, general words in an Act of obscure meaning, could not take such rights from them. The Climax of the Speech—Resistance to the Death. The following was Sir George Grey's closing peroration :—"I tell this House of Representatives it cannot in point of law or justice, do what it proposes. The member for Timaru used the word revolutionary, for which I thank him. Revolution contemplates a lawless act, and I say this act is more lawless than revolution, it is a coup cle Hat by the party in power, who seek to establish themselves for ever as representatives of the people. Will it succeed ? I can only say for my part that, as Superin" tendent of Auckland, I will never surrender the rights belonging to me by law. Let the House try to deprive me of those rights. So long as Courts of Justice exists in the land ; so long as there is a judicial committee in Great Britain will I appeal to them. You will gain nothing by hurrying in the end ; you will be defeated. Press it on and you will bring about a revolution you little think of. All posterity will raise their shouts behind me. I shall have a following in which I shall glory in time to come. I appeal to those around me not to commit themselves to it; I appeal to the career of the member for Timaru (Mr Stafford), whom I have never known to sacrifice right or justice to expediency, to try to obtain for the people of New Zealand a fair, full, and just consideration of the constitution you propose to impose upon them before so imposing it j I appeal to the Native Minister, whom it has been one of the hopes of my life to see in that position, to give his countrymen time to fairly consider the matter ; I appeal to the Treasurer, who has done service to his country, to whom dangers and difficulties have been nothiug, and in the field been equally efficient, not to go down to posterity with a bad name ; 1 appeal to the Minister of Public Works to keep to the duties of the profession in which he excels, and not to meddle with constitutions about which he knows nothing, and I appeals to every minister whom I desire to see successful, and to aid in the path of success. Why force me into a contest when I am co clearly in the right, and they so clearly in the wrong? Again, I appeal to those tribunes of the people ; those real kings of men who by their own labour have raised themselves from humblest conditions not to kick away the ladder by which they have risen, and so prevent their children and children's childrenfrom rising even higher. I tell them that they must and shall not do it. The people will insist on them not doing it. Although my voice is only one, I tell you the people will so insist. I have put before you two pictures, and it is now for you to choose which you adopt. It is only a question of a few months delay— a delay pregnant with consequences, —because if that delay is not given Ministers will be entering on a course which they see not the end of. You have no mercenaries such as the Emperor of France to carry his coup de fiat; you have not means nor power to carry one out. Speaking on my own behalf, I tell you I will resist you to the death if you try it! Throughout the whole speech, Sir George Grey was continually interrupted with enthusiastic and continued applause. He spoke with great eloquence and effect, and on Bitting down the applause was quite demonstrative.

Sir Donald's Reply. orr Donald McLean instantly sprang to his feet and made a short and vigorous reply. •He said it was the intention of the Government to increase—not take away the "gats and powers of the people. They knew the country was with them. It was their fixed determination to carry aboli■fi aD, d notning would make them swerve inthe slightest degree in the matter. The attitude and tone of Sir Donald was decidedly buligerent and defiant. Mr Stafford's Vindication. Un sitting down, Mr Stafford jumped teon« f a?\ in firm a*d courteons terms rephe(J . to Sir G personal references and appeal. He gave his r easo n a for supporting the GovernoxTl a-Ild ulUußtrated' from the exprience ot Jamaioa how representave institutions was rionW WM y- -7Hf ked what ™°° the people of New Zealand had in forming a constitotion drawnup by Sir George Grey in a co ng vel aUed G™^™*t-house whe yn the co ony was portioned off with pencil and v* M^Fitz ArouseddoE^_ i t 'bert arose as Mr Stafford sat ODDo3i?# ■' • • old fire went »* his *twtp- Jamgirrepressibleandcontinuous

laughter, with his droll chaffing. He spoke of new fire infused into the debate by Sir George Grey, and said that before he was afraid to speak, and generallyjexercised himself in the alleged new privilege in a manner that f It'ctrified the House.

Tlis Minister of JusticeThe Hon. Mr. iJowen succeeded in an excellent speech bt-yond anything anticipated. He specially referred to Sir George Grey having snapped his fingers at the House. Close of the DebateMr. Rolleston replied. He said there was no intention of moving an amendment, as the Government assured the House the address had no significance. The debate was altogether a war of giants, to which an end was put by the intervention of Teddy Wakefield, whose dreary speech drew a wet blanket over the proceedings. No amendment was moved, so the address passed without even a cheer, and in a half filled House. The Financial Statement. Sir Donald McLean announced the financial statement next week.

The House rose at eleven o'clock,