MR. GILLIES' ADDRESS

Auckland Star, 9 November 1870, Page 1 (Supplement)

MR. GILLIES' ADDRESS

TO THE ELECTORS.'

CITY WEST ELECTION

rfHE Hall of the Mechanics' Institute was crowded to excess last evening, in order to hear His Honor the Superintendent expound his political viow3 to the electors of City West, and his action with the General Assembly daring the last session, as a representative of the Province of Auckland. About two hundred

persons, unable to gain admittance to the body of the hall, crowded round the windows and in the ante-rooms of the Institute. The meeting, which was one of the largest and

most influential ever held in the above building, was throughout most orderly in its character, and gave a respectful and attontivo hearing to the lengthy and important speech made by his Honor. Punctually to the advertised time, the chair Was taken by Captain Daldy, ■who, in opening the meeting, said :— Gentlemen —It i 3 not often in a man's life that he has the pleasure to meet and address bo many intellectual faces as I see around me to-night. I suppose, however, I must go through the usual routine or form of asking

you to give the gentleman who will address you a patient hearing. It is a matter of form to ask this, I know ; for, during a period o over twenty years, during whioli I have had occasion many times to occupy a position like this, I never knew a gentleman who came forward on public grounds to give his yiews on public questions, but who had a patent hearing. I will, therefore, content myself with calling on Mr. Gillies to address you, and will not waste more time. — Mr. Gillies (who was received with immense cheering) said : Mr. chairman and gentlemen, electors of the City West, I have come here this evening to address you at your request. Had it not been for your request I should not have considered it necessary to address you until the writs, had been issued for afresh election for the Geueral Assembly, t think it is an unfortunate thing thas these election excitements should be unnecessarily continued, for they take off people from their business, and from things of much more importance than elections. But, sir, when T w;is informed by some of your number that it was desired that I should address the electors of City West—when I was informed that statements, or rather mis statements, had been made, which were tending to my prejudice—which vtere being believed unless they were contradicted —when I found that yo i desired to hear my sentiments on the public topics of the day, I at once consented, at a very short notice, to address you. _ Gentlemen, I am not desirous of speaking to a public audience, although I am not afraid of doing so, for I would much rather that I were judged of by my aet3 tuan by my speeches. (Hear, hear.) I had much rather that my works were my judges than my schemes. (" Bushy's affair for instance." Laughter.) I come here to-night not as the Superintendent of the province, and I beg yoii distinctly to understand that. I come here as a representative of the province in the General Assembly, and as one who aspires to that office as a candidate again. Ido not come hero as the Superintendent of the province to defend myself from the assertions and insinuations that have been levelled against mo and the Provincial Government a few nights ago. And those who have come here expecting me to enter into a controversy of that nature will find themselves wofully mistaken. I urn here as a representative of the province in the General Assembly, and not as the Superintendent of the province. As the Superintendent, I will bo prepared to give an account of my administration of the functions of that office to those who elected me to that, office—to the electors of the province of Auckland. But lam not prepared at the call of that ephemeral existence—the Ministry of the day—to give an account. (Hear, hear.) Sir, —I regret—and I think few who have the interests of the colony at heart but must regret—that a member of any Ministry should have thought it necessary—should have thought it his duty, to have interfered, either privately, or by the Press, or publicity, in order to have sown discontent and dissatisfaction with the institutions of the province. (Bah!). Be they rightly administered, or be they wrongly administered, I say that no member of the Ministry has a right to come into a province and to endeavour to blame these provincial institutions and their administration to the people of that province.— (" Yes, he has.") —I Fay he has not. And I Bay, more especially (interruption) — And 1 say, more especially, that it is an unseemly proceeding on the part of a member of the Ministry that pi-ofesses to be a Ministry favorable to the existence and character of provincial institutions, that such a course Bhould have been taken. However objectionable the aduiijiistration of the province may be, that is another question. It is not the part of a Minister—of a Colonial Minister—to attempt to bring provincial administration into contempt. As I hare said alreudj, 1 atn not here to defend the provincial administration; that is not my business here to-night. And Ido profoundly regret that it is necessary for me, as the representative of this province, to have to defend my actions, or to refer to the misrepresentations that have been made.in regard to my actions as a representative in *-he General Assembly. With that I have to do this night as such representative and as a candidate again to represent you in the General Assembly. And if i shoulii have to say any hard things in regard <o the Colonial Treasurer, I trust you will exonerate me from any desire- to do so. ("Oh! of course." Laughter.) I hear a gentleman say " Of course," and I accept his statement. It is "of course," for I do feel it is an unfortunate thing, both for the colony and the province, that two repre-

sentatives of the colony—sucli as tlie Colonial Treasurer and Superintendent of any province should be in antagonism; I believe it is the duty of the General and Provincial Governments to work in harmony and hand in hand, and that neither should throw. discredit or contempt on the other, and for my own part I shall endeavour not to do so. And, sir, I en assure you aud this assembly that it is with no such idea that I came here. Had I desired to do anything of the sort, I had plenty opportunities of doing it before coming here, to-night. When I returned here from the Assembly, I declined the otters of my friends to have some public demonstration of approval of my conduct in Auckland, because I thought it would be a sort of censure on the Ministry, because I had no wish and no desire to place myself in opposition to them. (Cries of "Oh !" and cheers and hisses.) It has been my habit in former years, as a member of the Assembly, on all occasions to address my constituents when I returned from the Assembly, to give them an accouut of what I had done, and an account of the slate of ■affuirs generally in the Assembly. On this occasion I had written out an address to my constituents, but feeling that it might be construed into an attack on the Ministry, I consigned it to the pigeon-holes, and did not, as 1 was accustomed to do, address my constituents. And simply because I did not wish to place myself in opposition to the Ministry of the day. And if I have now to mate animadversions on the Ministry of the day, it is because of the action of one of those Ministers, who privately, and by the Press, and publicly, systematically attacked me. With these preliminary remarks I will give you a short account of what occurred during the last session in regard to that principal question—the question of the financinl policy of the Government, as it i 3 called. Before I left Auckland to attend the last session of the Assembly, I had heard floating rumours that I was expected to go down as the opponent of the Ministry. I endeavoured to trace those rumours; and, probably, the Colonial Treasurer can tell you from whence those rumours originated. I went to th 9 Assembly, and when I got down there I did not busy myself in political talk and combinations. I bußied myself in examining into accounts

with the General Government. I spent days and days in that work, in examining the charges made by the General Government again3t this province. (" Did you look into the pot.") And the result was, the discovery of a good many thousand pounds charged against the province which had no right to be charged, and which, it was afterwards admitted by the Government themselves, they had no right to charge. While thus engaged I heaivl that ruinoivrs were busily circulated through the House that I and my friend, Mr. Eeader Wood, had come down there with the intention of forming an opposition to the Government. I heard this rumour, and.l took ■.the trouble of finding Jout whence it originated. I tracked it up to the Government whip, and we know whence the whip gets hi 3 inspiration. In regard to such insinuations as those made before I left Auckland, and those made in the Assembly before the financial statement qccurred, all I can say is that they were absolutely and utterly without foundation, that no man went to the A ssembly with a better desire c to support the existing Government than myself (cries of" Oh !" and cheers). I expect the gentlemen here will take my word a3 an honest man. If not, I can oniy present to them the fact that I had been for years a supporter ot the Fox ministry's ideas as against Mr. Stafford's administration, that time after time I had voted with them, arid that, it was only within a.few months before I went down that I was asked to become a member of the Fox ministry. With the3e views tten I went down to tha Assembly, but I found myself met by these rumours—that. I was to be an opponent Why, I know not. Whether it was a suspicion against my lriend, Mr. Wood, who had once held the pos tion of Colonial Treasurer, nnd it might be thought that he was aspiring to that position again, or whether it was that we were two dangerous men to the rising constellation, I cannot tell. There was the fact. And I merely mention these tilings to show that these imputations, which wero made both against Mr. Wood and myself, originated long before the financial statement was made. On the 28th of June, the financial statement was made. On the 14th June the House hai met, and on the 23th the financial statement was made. That statement I dare say a largenumber,or perhaps most of you have rerad. I am quite sure of this, however, that of the large number of you who have read that statement, very few of you have undeVstood it. I venture to say that even not many of the members of the Assembly can to this day tell me how many millions were authorised by that scheme. (Laughter.) I doubt if the author of it can. (Renewed Laughter.) When that statement was made Mr. Wood got up and madeaveryfew remarks derogatory to the scheme. It won't take you long to listen to them ; they are but few, and well worthy of being remembered. They are as follows : — " Mr. K. G. Wood said it was not his intention, at so late an hour, to address the committee at any length. He simply desired to state that he had listened with very patient attention to the financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, and he might s-iy that, in all hi* experience, he had never heard of a, scheme so wild, so uupractical, and so impracticable, as the scheme which the honorable gentleman had detailed to them ; and all the amount of consideration tbat he could possibly give it, and all the amount of detail by Which it could in subsequent debates be elucidated; would not, he was quite certain, alter his general opinion of that scheme. Therefore he had reason at that moment to say he should oppose the resolution which had just been submitted, and divide the House upon the question that night." That is the sum and substance of what he said. (A voice : " Yes, and he had to eat His leeks.") I am told—l have heard that it was said the other night this was an unusual course.on his part. lam not here to defend Mr. Wo<xi. I have quite enough to do to defend myself. But I have this feeling, that I shall never hear another man misrepresented without! defending him, and when I have heard that it was stated that M*. Wood took a Hrosb unusiuil course —a course most unprecedented—a course that was to be considered, improper —in immediately after hearing a statement of this kind, and getting up and condemning it. Has Has it never been done before ? I find that no further back than 1863—only two years a g o the Hon. Mr. John Hall made a financial statement, and at the end when that state-

ment was concluded—a statement occupying some fourteen pages of Hansnrd —an bon. member pot up and spoke of the statement in something like the following terms : —" I look upon it that there i 3 a radical injustice enunciated in the policy of the lion, gentleman which must bring down ruin upon the country ; anH an arrangement that those coming after will characterise as a most gambling and haphazard transaction, based on no principle and no fairness. The honorable gentleman who thus attacked Mr. Hall's statement immediately after it was delivered, was no other than the present Colonial Treasurer. (Cheers.) The work I have quoted from is Hansard, published by the Government of New Zealand. 1 hero is therefore no mistake about that. Myself and Mr. Wood have been found fault with in so speedily coming to a conclusion on these large proposals of the Colonial Treasurer —that it was very improper in two young members who were clever enough to come to such a conclusion ; that it was too bold and presuming on our parts. Probably, if that gentleman who made usa of these words, who hell the position that ho holds, had known that they had held the position of Cabinet Ministers long before he had migrated from the obscurity of a newspaper editor—(cheers and uproar)— Chairman : " Fair play ! Fair pl a y i"—A. Voice: "You want all the fair play on your own side." —Mr. Gillies : I was saying, that had the Colonial Treasurer remembered' that those two members had occupied the position of Cabinet Ministers before ever he had done, he might have spared the taunt of their being young members. But we pa?s that by. We are not particular about these things in politics ; we hit each other hard, and don't feel sore next day. It is said that we came hurriedly to this conclusion. I don't know as to Mr. Wood, I speak as to myself now. All I know is that I had 'no connexion with Mr. Wood with regard to his opinion in the Assembly. He got up spontaneously. I should not have got up had it not been for the virulent attack made on him immediately by the Colonial Treasurer. Hearing this applied to a gentleman of the known character of Mr. Wood, I certainly could not sit still, knowing what I did. I don't, know whether Mr. Wood knew it o~- not, but the Colonial Treasurer tells this country that no one knew of this great scheme of his except the members of (he Ministry before it was enunciated by him.. He may tell literally, —Isayhemav tell literally what is true. but. he doe 3 no! fiv.^ a correct in.pression of the fact. Q-entlemon, I came to no hurriel conclusion on the scheme, for months before I left. Auckland the Colonial Treasurer shov ed me. printed slips of the immigration and public works policy. I was notaware of course of the total policy. I did not know the extent of that poli-y. I simply knew that a policy was to be brought in for immigration and public works ; and, so far as that policy was concerned, I -na3 prepared heartily to support it. When I knew this much, I considered and considered. From those little informations that you can get from one place and another, I knew that_ in order to carry out this policy borrowing would be necessary, and I considered very carefully before T went down to the Assembly tlie extent to which the colony would bo justified in going in for such a polby, approving of it heartily a3 I did, and I came to the conclusion that to the extent of borrowing one million, or possibly two millions, I should be prepared to support, such n, scheme—because I do most thoroughly believe, and have shown my belief in -ways "that I shall speak of hereafter. I did believe in that policy, and did believe in it before going to the General Assembly. And, having considered it in the light of whether we should borrow one or two millions, having come to the conclusion thai, two millions was the most we could judiciously expend. When I heard this policy of borrowing ten millions, I had no need to consider as to whether it was judicious for the sake of the colony, or not. I had already come to the conclusion that two millions was as much as could be borrowed without plunging the colony iuto endless expenditure ; and that expenditure of ten millions was simply a reckless throwing away of money. Nor, sir, had I finy difficulty when this financial statement was wound up by a resolution, to impose duties on corn and (lour. Thiifc was a question that I have considered and studied many years ago, and I know every argument that can bo brought forward in support of it. I knew what putting a duty on flour and corn meant, a-icl I, for one, had no hesitation in saying that I was opposed to any such scheme. (Cheers.) When thia financial "scheme wa3 propounded with the results T have stated —and I appeal to Hansard as to my stating them correctly — I did not oppose the scheme. _ I did.no more Ultra express my disapprobation of it, and a disapprobation especia ly of imposing a duty on corn and flour. I then was requested by some of the Auckland members to call a meeting of the Auckland members in regard to this proposal, which I did. I believe I have got the circular with me —(A Voice : " Oh, it's quite immaterial.") The scheme was brought forward on the 28th June, and on the, 30th this circular wits handed round to the various members of the province of Auckland : " Wellington, 30th June, 1870. My dear sir, Several members of the house for the Province of Auckland have suggested the propriety of the whole members for that Province meeting far a mutual interchange of vie.vs on the subject of the financial proposals of the Government, and have requested IKG to call such meeting. I have therefore to invite you to attend such a meeting iv tho committee room No.'l on Saturday morning next, <et 10.30 a.m. You will distinctly understand that attendance at this meeting will not imply approval of any views which may be there stated, but will simply be regarded as a desire to obtain a common understanding on matters so deeply affecting the Province—l am, yours truly, Thomas B. Gilliks." In conformity with that circular, a meeting of the- Auckland members was held, at which'till tho members but Mr. Clai-k, who I am sorry to say was ill at the time, were present.—(Mr. Dignan :"I was not, I had not the honor.")—Oh yee>, I thiuk you were. Well, tho result of that meeting was that seven members out of the thirteen present expressed themselves rather unfavorable to the scheme, and desirous that it should go to the country, and I think, if I remember right, that although my friend Mr. Dignan st that meeting did not express himself SO on that occasion, he did so,on the question coming before the house. The majority, however, thought that so large a scheme ought to bo taken before the public, rather than that it should be decided by a parliament just about to be dissolved. Two members of the

Province of Auckland gave the scheme their full approval. (Cries of " name.") Mr. Farmer and Mr. Macfarlane. These two members were the only two who gave it their unhesitating approval. —(A yoice: " The only two who were right.")— Well, it is possible. There were, however, three other houorable members that were doubtful about it, and one or two others who thought the measure objectionable in some respects. But that was the result of the meeting of the' Auckland i members. A considerable majority of the members present considered that the scheme ought to be submitted to the country before the House would take upon itself to decide. I rather thiuk their opinion was right. However, subsequently to that a meeting of the supporters of the Ministry tools: place, in which the Ministry agreed to a modification of thesschemae —a modification which may bo called a modification so far as the money part of it was concerned, but no modification in regard to amount. The original scheme was this : that there should be £6,000,000 borrowed for railways, immigration, &c — that, is, for immigration and public works ; bat afterwards there was to be a considerable amount more, amounting to £10,000,000 altogether, the liability to be incurred by money not borrowed ; but tho work should be done by guarantee. In effect, the mor.liflcat.ion was, that the money borrowing should be less, but the guarantee borrowing should be more. (" Oh!"). If any one doubts my word, I have here tho Acts, to show what the Government are authorised to borrow. They are authorised to borrow on behalf of railways, £4,003,000. They are authorised to borrow £1,000,000 for defence purposes ; for immigration and public works they are empowered to expend £7,500,000 — either in the shapo of money or of guarantee to the making of railways, in addition to all other things, and in addition to two millions and a half acres of land. Now these are the facts of the case. (Hear.) Under this so-called scheme, which is not a new scheme, I wish you distinctly to remember this large amount is to be raised in some way. Here are the .Acts of the Asaembly. This is no longer a mere proposal; it is law. Hero is the Act of the Assembly. It is no use now approving or disapproving. The whole thing has become law. Now all we have to do is to sec that the law shall be honestly and fairly carried out. (Cheers.) After a few days it became evident that the thirst for borrowing had become too strong. There was no use anyone saying a word against borrowing unlimited millions. (Laughter.) It was evident tho House had tasted blood (cheers and laughter), and must have more. (Cheers.) Consequently, the proposals of the Government were accepted without any division of the House. It was cvi dent to myself and to every other member, that there wa3 no use dividing on these proposals. There would be a a very large majority for borrowing a3 much as could be borrowed. The question now is, to spend it the best way we can for the good of the couutrv. When I saw that such was the temper of the House, I determined that tho experiment should be honestly carried out. I would not leave myself open to the reproach of interfering with the policy of the Government. From that day—from the moment the House decided upon'going forward with this policr—l say deliberately from that time forward I was a consistent supporter of the Ministry in their proposals. (Che.«r3.) It is a little amusing to find myself hold up as an opponent of the Government scheme, seeing that from tho moment the House accepted the scheme I supported thorn in overy division. (Oh !) I say the documents arc here to show it. (Cheers!) I tell you I was distrustful of the manner in which this expenditure was to be carried out. When I found they made a mistake in the Estimates of £2>,000 — (A voice: "£23,000." Laughter.) —I say I became distrustful how these millions would be expended, when I found this mistake brought forward from one column to another, as it is here. It goes right through the financial statement. I say again I could not be satis fied that there was likely to bo very groat care taken in the expenditure of these million?. (Cheers.) If anyone in this meeting wishes to verify my statement, !»e can have this document. It id a mistake thiit I called attention to in the House, and which, never co this day, has been explained. But seeing that the proposals had been accepted, it became my fixed duty, my sole idea, to take care that this province should have its fair share of this expenditure. (Loud cheers.) I applied myself to that object alone. It may be that I have not succeeded in my object to the extent, I could wish. Bat I believe I have suocee.-'ed as far as it was possible. I have succeeded in getting a promise; that is all that ha 3 come yet. There is a scheme and a promise. The province will be called to see those millions when they come. The question now is how to work this poliay out, safely and honestly, judiciously and economically — cheers — without squandering this money on billets of one sort and another ; squandering it in the wonderous way that only Governments can squander money. We are now to sec where we are to got the able administrators to look after and control this expenditure, so that the money may not be squandered as people have seen millions. I won't say millions, but thousands and thousands of pounds, of public money borrowed—thrown away and wasted. (Oheow.) I want you fully to understand that I never did oppose the Government proposals for immigration and public works. (Li ear.) I could not have opposed them, for I had sup, orteel such objects long before they appeared in the General Assembly. I had proposed similar works to be carried out in this province iv the shapo of the Kaipara tramway and the Waikato railway. (Cheers.) Why this is the very scheme that I submit!.o Ito the Colonial Treasurer, and no ons eun suivly say that I opposed public works. I would support, and shall always support, every scheme that will open up the country, but J. am prepared to oppose any scheme that will be likely to result in waste of public moneysaddling upon tho people of this province the interest of funds wasted and thrown away. (Cheers.) I will not say anything more on the financial suhemo of the Government. Some remarks have been mado in regard to the Harbour Trusts Bill, which I had the honor of introducing to the Assembly. It has been said that I was wrong in saying that the Government opposed it. I will give -you a statement of the facts. That bill "was prepared before I went to the Assembly. It was circulated among all the members of the Provincial Council.—Mr. Swanson : " Not all; I did not get one."—Mr. Gillies: You may not hare got

it; But it was sent to you. I forwarded it to the Chamber of Commerce, and to a:nrmiiber of the principal merchants in-Auckland.- It' was received with approval by- some, which caused me to introduce it "in a modified form to the Assembly. I laid it before the Government, and the Colonial Treasurer, in whose, deparcment these things are, referred me to the Collector of Customs, who was to go over the bill with me, and make-any remarks on it that were necessary. I went to the Collector, ,and we went over the bill together. Some memoranda passed between us, aud we agreed as to the amendments necessary to bring the bill into accordance with the views of the Government. Having agreed on that we went up to the: Colonial Treasurer, and he was informed by tho Collector that the thing was satisfactory, i then believed that the whole thing was satisfactory to the Government; but judge of my surprise, when the bill came up in tho House a violent attack was made on it by the Colonial Treasurer, not in regard to details, but in regurd to tho measure as a whole. It was described as something liken, Russian' despotism, or something worse even, than that, and found fault with in every provision. It was only when t ere were some very strong opinions expressed as to the pro priety of Provincial Councils being authorised to deal with such matters that the Government agreed to pass a general bill enabling Provincial Govoi-nnients to deal with such a question. Now these are the facts of the case, ■■•■ which were perhaps forgotten by-the Colonial Treasurer. As to the Constitution of the Board, I had no particular opinions. I did not kuow how it' might bs constituted. All that I desired Wiis to get a Board that would be able to deal with this Harbour Trust ; and this harbour of Auckland, I say, has become too large, and the interests connected with it too important for any Superintendent, however able or industrious he may be, to attend to it properly. This question is a most importantquestionfor New Zealand; for, I say, it is by her commerce, not by her agriculture ilone, that New Zealand is to prosper. Looking to her position in this southern hemisphere, her extensive harbours, and the accommodation they will be able to afford, she will yet command the commerce of the South Seas. (Cheers.) Sir, —There is another matter which, in my capacity ai a representative of the province, I introduced to the notice "of the G-eneval Assembly. I vnenn the Auckland Waste Lands Act. I did so without consultation of tho Provincial Council, because it appeared to me (hat it could only be done after we had settled another matter, of which I will give you a full explanation presently, viz., the Busby laud claims. (Cheers and dissent.) When I should get that question settled, looking to what I knew to be the policy of the Government, viz., to promote immigration to this colony, I saw that if the province were to keep pace with other provinces wo must go in for immigration to the utmost extent. I do not mean the immigration of this class or that class of persons, but a well considered and well balanced immigration, bringing in capital and labour at the same time ; men win would go upon the toil, cultivate it, and stick to it. (Cheers.) Looking at' the inducements which other provinces could (jive as to settlement, I saw that, wo m.U3) offer some inducements equal to theirs. No doubt we have here a better cliinaie, but people in England don't know that, and they arejust as likely to bo attracted to Otago as to Auckland. We have not so large an extent of good land available for settlement, and wo-mig'it have some difficulty in altnictiiig-.sattlers as compared with other provinces. It was, therefore, necessary to hold out inducements, and with this view I introduced the Wnsto Lands Bill, *o that any man, not merely he who came into the country, but r.ny man already in tho country, who would rather die- the ground than sew with a needle or hammer with a lapstone, might ga upon waste lano, sit down upon it, sow crops, and make himself a bona fide, settler. (Cheers) That is the principle of the bill whiuii I introduced. His only within the last few d>ys that I have had before me numerous instances of what that may do for the colony. Men with families have asked me whether this had come inlo operation. "If it has," they said, " show us v pioco of land and we will settle down upon it, and try aid make a living out of it. Wo ' are now on our way out of the colony, for we can't get employment, but if there is laud for us we are prepared to go upon it and occupy it." ('■' Hear, hear."; I say the true way of colonising is by attaching people to the soil. I only wish it was in my power to do this, not only in regard to the country generilly, but with regard to the goldflelds, so that we might retain many miners who might be unsuccessful in digging for gold to settle down upon their land holdings and bocome valuable colonists. I do not know whether ifc is worth while to talk about the Bast Coast lands—those Gisborne lands which we wrested from tho hands of the Colonial Government. It is said they were pleased to give them up, but I say it was only when they we:o wrested from their hands, after three months of correspondence, which is sought to be suppressed, that the Colonial Government would give them up: I: don't think the General Government has a right to take credit for that sort of thing. (Hear, hear;) But that is not unusual. I don't blame the present Government for it is so much like the system of Government. I know that in a system of Central Government it is impossible to do othsrwise then act upon a system of delay. When the magazine here in Auckand contained tons upon tons of powder, which might havo blown up tho whole city, representations were made to the General Government on the subject, but it took time to consider, and necessarily took time before the evil was removed, although the powder was unguarded and unwatched, and the lives and properties of the citizens of Auckland were put in jeopardy. It was tome weeks—at all events many days—before there was a guard set over it, or any reaioval made. I do not blame the Government, for if you expect any Central Government to act efficiently and quickly you are vastiy mistaken. There is also the question of the Briroinart Fort and the Albert Barracks. I went to the Government, asking that these pieces of land should bo handed over to the province—the Britomart. Fort so that the point might bo cut away, and a road made by the beach from Parnellto the city ; and the Albertßarraks 3 to form a large square for the recreation "of the inhabitants, and that the building might bo utilised for various purposes, such as a hospital and grammar school, for which one of the buildings is particularly adapted. I asked these things before the Assembly met and received no answer,' but when I^bWught

~6he question up ~fn* the House-, • I received a fair and, proper reply.-1 It was then fairly said,: "We are prepared to hand then! over to the pi-ovince subject to tha necessities of 'the colony." Subject-to the necessities of-the ■ colony all these things must be done, but to this, dtiy nothing has been dene, and the necessities of the colony ha?e not yet been found out. (Oheera and laughter.) I did not ask them for the Provincial Government, but I asked them for the proviuce, because the representatives of the province are the persons who are entit'ed to allot these lands put. I cay no Minister of the-General Government has a right to allot them out at bis pleasure; they are the property of the province and not of the, General Government.' (Hear, hoar.) I now come to ?, question which has been the subject of a great deaLof talk lately* and a subject of a great deal of mis-Yopresen-tation—a subject upon which I shall be most happy to give you the fullest and-fairest explanation. I mean the great vexed question of the Busby land claims. (Cheers.) You . will understand me perfectly : lam not going into any discussion with the Provincial Council. They have dona what they conceived to be their, duty, and I have done what I believe to be mine. What I have to do now is to give you the facts; as to the conclusions arrived at, that is another matter. Fromthese facts you must judge for yourselves. Many of you were not in tho colony when these Busby laud claims originated.- I will give you a slight sketch of their origin and development, although it has nothing to do with the ultimate issue. Somewhere about the year 1839 - 40, before the sovereignty was proclaimed, Mr. Busby, who was then British Eesident here, bought lands from the natives in the same way as a great many of the early settlers bought lands. Nowadays, we might think he did not give sufficient money for those lands. That has, however, nothing to do with the matter, lie did as others 'did. There was an Act passed subsequently by the Assembly which would not allow more than a limited quantity of land so purchased to be h'olJ. A (Jourt was appointed for the settlement of such claim?, and many of the old settlers came in and obtained the amount of land so limited by the Assembly. But Mr. Busby would not come in and accept such adjudication. He fought out his claim from 1840 to 1867, a. period of twenty-seven years. He fought out his claim before the Privy Council, and brought it backwards and forwards to the home country and the colony in the most pertinacious way. I am not now going to express a positive opinion in regard to M ■. '^isby's claim; but if my impression may be si;. ; It, must have boon against Mr. Busby, not. aguiiidt the justice of his claim—looking at it from his point of view. But Ido believe it was a folly in the Government of tho country to have recognised such, claims at all. (Hear.) That has always been my opinion. But that now is a matter of times gone by. In 1867 an Act was passed by the Assembly which declared that these claims had some show of justice in them, and that they ought to be submitted to arbitration. By that Act these claims were referred to arbitration, and the Auckland members c nsented to the passing of-.I !iat Act. I was not a member then. The effect of that Act was, that these claims should be paid in scrip, chargeable on the lands of the province of Auckland. I have no doubt that the Auckland members thought that the arbitration cou'd not be otherwise than in favour of the province. But unfortunately it went the other way. The award of the arbitrators was to the effect that Mr. Busby was entitled to £36,800 inland scrip, to.be exercised upon lands put up for sale. This sum is equivalent to about 73,000 acres. Now if a person refers a dispute to arbitration, even supposing -the arbitrator to be even a man in the street, he has a right to abide by the award made. (A voice : " Who was his legal adviser ?") A gentleman asks me who: was Mr. Busby's legal adviser. (Cheers and hisses.) I can only say that I was noc (cheers), and that »ny statement to that effect is utterly and absolutely without foundation. (Cbeer?.) Neither had I anything to do with drawing up!this award. I had nothing whatever to do •w.th. it from beginning to end. (Cheers.) A brief was put into my hands to argue a point of law before the Supreme Court. I did argue that point to the best of my ability, and there my duty ended ; that was ■ my whole and sole connection with this Busby ease from the beginning to end. (Loud cheers) I say that the statement to which I have first referred is an utter falsification made for the purpose of injuring me in your estimation. (Oheera.) But I was going to tell you further about this award. This scrip to tho extent of £36,800 was issued to Mr. Busby by the Colonial Government. He had it in his possession, though lie was unable to use it. The late Superintendent (cheors) desiring no doubt to make better terms for the Province, withdrew from sale all those lands that were open for sale, so that the scrip could not be exercued. (Cheers.) I believe that with perfectly good intention his desire was to prevent tho lands of the Province from being thrown away through the exercise of this scrip over them. That was the position of affairs when I came into office. Representations were mado to me of injustice being done m Mr. Busby, in not being allowed to exercise his scrip. I said I would be prepared to open land, over which he could exercise his scrip if he pleased. It was not until the month of March last when Mr. Busby, for the first time, made application to me in respect of this scrip. He desired to know what I was prepared to do. I said that I was prepared to act honestly—that I would allow hhn to exercise his scrip, and would put land into the market over which he could exercise it. He then wished me to make an offer for this scrip. I said, " Any offer that is made must come from you." AH that I had to do was to see that the honor and good faith of the province should be kept, aud that laud should not be unfairly or unjustly withheld from sale. But shortly after Mr. Busby made proposals for the commutation of the scrip for a money payment. It was he «rho made this proposal. The statement that any proposals were ever made by me, ia utterly and absolutely false, and without foundation. All the proposals that were made came from Mr. Busby, and not from tho Provincial Government in any way. lam too well accustomed to make bu--gains to do that sort of thing. (Cheers and laughter.) Although I was anxious to see these elai-PB discharged, I was not going .to make proposals, for I knew well -they would be taken advantage of. I therefore took especial care to make; no offer. The nature of this- award left; it a very doubtful question whether < Mr. Busby was nob entitled under it to the remainder of

biß land as well as to the £36,800. As i« lawyer, I believe he would be able to make his claim good, not only to the money, but to.all:.the unsold la d. This was awarded as epeoial damage. When be made the offer he was willing to take five per cent. off. (Laughter.) The amount of land awarded was between one hundred thousand and two hundred thousand acres. But after a little i negotiation he was willing to take £36,800. I did nor. see that because it was not £36,800 that was awarded, but £36,800 worth of scrip, I did not see that land was necessarily worth ten shillings or. a pound an acre. It was not the amount of money that was awarded. It was on this point we took separate views and could not come to an agreement. Wcqnarrelled, and I t<:ld him there was no use attempting to deal ai y further, and unless he should get some one to deol for him, wh«i would ni.t be merely ntTiCted by personal influences, it was no use Irving to make a bargain. That did not look' like acting in his interestHe agreed to leave the matter in thehnnds of two neutral persons. ("Name.") I will not name. These two gentlemen had many .interviews with me, and gradually they came down from £36,800 to £25,000. I came up, from, I.think, £18,000 to £22,500. They came down to £23,000, aud there we remained. It doubtful whether we should make a bargain or not. It was now left a question to be determined in three days one way or other. If it were not settled the whole thing was to be off. Now this land sciip could be exercised whenever any piece of land in the province was put up for sale. I immediately saw it was not for the public interest that this s-houkl be the case, and that if we wanted to introduce immigrants^ under such circumstances, we would be committing a gross fraud, in bringing people here who must, either buy Busby's scrip or be driven to compete against it. There was no safeguard that a man v ould not be run out by this scr p, and t was asserted that it would be out of the way under such circumstances. I consented to give this £23,000 in exchange for the scrip which locked m> the lands of tbe province for an indefinite period. I consider that in doing so I made a good bargain for the province. (Cheers.) We could not get out of it. The effect of this arrangement was to settle a money debt upon the province, in stead of a large land claim, and I can tell you, for my part, it is much easier to get out of a money debt than of an enormous land claim of that sort. I think any member of the Assembly who hears me will admit that it would be a difficult thing to get an Act repeal ing the Busby land claim —whereas it would not be so diflicult to transfer this money liability, in the event of some possible contingency—such as a change of Ministers - under which it could be wiped out by the stroke of a colonial treasurer's pen. (Loud cheers ) I have not entered into the question whether Mr. Busby had a right to this award ; but here is the award made ; and, in common honesty, we are bound by it, whether it i.* wrightful or wrongful Instead of having the lands of the province locked-up by this scrip, the liability has become a money debt. ' great deal has been said of my paying this money without the authority of the Provincial Council. I won't deny that there is some little truth in all this — that I may have taken a somewhat autocratic step; but 1 believe I have done the best that could he done for the province. I would rather not have done it, if there had been any escape. Only three days were left to complete the arrangement, and under those circumstances L. had no hesitation iv acting upon my own responsibility, and appealing to the community whether I had not made a fair and honest bargain. (Loud cheers.) I consider that anyone placed in a position of power—whether he be a Colonial Minister or Superintendent of- a province—must, at times, exercise his power, and perhaps stretch his power for the benefit, of the public. If he be not prepared to act upon his own responsibility upon such occasions, he is not entitled to be the governor of a community. I was going to tell yon.how I raised the money for this bargain". I consulted the Colonial Treasurer upon the subject ; he was cognisant of the whole transaction. I asked him how I was to raise the money. We talked over it some time, and then went to the bank, and talked to them upon the subject. 1 found that if I got an endorsement of the Colonial Treasurer they would put the loan through. The Government were exceedingly glad to see this matter settled. The Colonial Treasurer gave this guarantee, and there it is, in writing, on the Council table. I may have done wrong, but if I did, the Colonial Treasurer is particsps criminis." There was an advance given by the bank to the.ex'ent of £23,000, but it never was debited to the provincial accDu t. It was never taken out of the provincial moneys, and it remains on the books of the bank, on the faith of that loan which is-to be raised by the General Government. There never has been a single penny of this money drawn from the provincial account. But I made a further arrangemenf. Formerly we got no interest on provincial money lying in the bank. I managed to make an arrangement with the bank that they were to charge seven per cent, for this overdraft of JE23,0 JO, but on the other hand, they were to give us seven per cent, for our provincial balance. The consequence was, that our balance becoming shortly afterwards heavy, we had little interest 1o pay—nut £lsoou the whole thing. (Cheers.) I say that I did a good thing lor the province in being able to get. rid of this incubus over its l»nds. Unless we did ?o, we could not ..introduce immigrants into the province, or take advantage of the public works scheme. We have to pay £1,380 a year, but it is cheaper to do that, and have our lands so that we may settle, immigrants upon them., There is only one other topic that 1 need call your attention to, and that is the vexed question which is called protection. To those who have studied the subject, and have really attended to political economy— who understand what protection ami free trade .mean on one side and on the other —I have no hesitation in declaring that I am a ■itaunch freetrader. (Cheers and hisses.) I : , never blink .my . conviction*. (A voice: P"You won't do.") I care not whether I will do; or not. I speak to those who are acquainted with i the meaning of the terms protection and tree trade. I find that greal ignorance prevails on these terms, pro tectionists?.oa'.lng themselves freetraders, and free-traders calling themselves protectionists. The Colonial Treasurer calls himself an encourager of native industry. Were Ito take thim at. bis word—the words that have been published, and if he were truly sincere iin ! J( b4s application of them, he

would have told you plainly what he was. The language is not that of a protectionist, but that of a free-trader. In fact, it exemplifies the old story, "The hand vas the hand of Esau, but the voice was ihe voice of Jacob." (Hear, hear, and cheers.) For though a staunch free-trader will go as far as anyone in the encouragement of native industries, and I apprehend I have shown it by my acts and works, because I have spent money on it in carrying the idea out, and that is more than other people do who call out loudly for protection. I apprehend those will call out moat loudly for protection who are least deserving of it. If you will look around you will find that- those people want protection who want protection against their mortgages —against their own laziness and want of enterprise What we want is the encouragement of native industry. Truly, I agree with that, and will grant it to the utmost extent. I want to see native industry encouraged by the raw material that can be made-up by native industry being admitted free of duty— by providing the material to exercise the industry upon it, and not by taxing Ihe raw material. I want to see industry get its niateiial at the cheapest rate ; and I want industry to exercise itself at the highest possible rate by feeding itself at the cheapest rate. For, if you raise the price of food, just as surely must you raise the price of wages. Not with* advantage to labour, mind you, for you have to raise the price of labour, and you destroy industry in consequence ; for you know well that the great difficulty in a new conutry like this of getting reproductive and profitable industry is the difficulty of getting labour cheap enough. I am not an advocate of cheap labour, unless you can get it cheap and paying the labourer as well; and that is only to be done by letting him have the necessaries of life at the cheapest possible price; and for that reason I say, unhesitatingly, that any proposal to put a duty on flour and corn is a fatal poiicy—that it is making a mistake — a fundamental mistake in political economy. For it is no use saying the baker "will not charge any more for a loaf if you put on £1 a ton duty on flour. I have heai-d it has been stated that the baker will not charge more for a loaf if they pay £1 a ton more for flour. Supposing it is so, supposing that no one pays more for the loaf if the baker pays £1 more for flour, who loses the pound ?—(A voice : " Nobody.")—l apprehend the baker must he the loser. But how about the native industry of baking? is that encouragement to native industry? (Laughter.) Ihe whole thing is founded on fallacy. Food every man must have. All industry is founded on food. Labor is founded on food. That is the fuel that brings up work, and if you raise the price of that fuel you must raise the price of labor. Keep down the price of that fuel and you will get cheap labour. You will get the laborer cheap, and he will thereby be enabled to make his labour cheaper. That is the foundation of all political economy and of all five trade. It is to enable the labour producer to live ceaply, that is the object in the first instance, to reduce taxation upon the raw material that can be manufactured in the colony, and on the other side —for here is the difference between free trade and protection)—the one would tax the manufactured commodity for the sake of keeping it out, and for the sake of the producer in the colony, and the other would not. If a revenue must be raised to a certain amount on a tariff, he will simply put that tariff, that tax, on articles which can be produced in the colony, rather than on those which cannot be produced in the colony. But that was not the proposal of the present Government. I have got the little tariff arrangement of the present G-overnmer.t here, and I find that the arrangement of that tariff, instead of being in favor of the colony as against outsiders of the colony, is an arrangement by which the burdens are transferred from the South Island to the North Island. And the Colonial Treasurer as much as admitted that the other evening, inasmuch as he admitted that it would have, a slight effect on the North Island. The articles on which duty is charged are those which we don't produce here as exporting commodities—flour, wheat, barley, oats, hay, chaff, and—eggs ! I don't know about the last, they are charged at per cubic foot. When I read to you those things which are decreased, you will think to yourselves as to whether they are things by which you will benefit. Sugar is to be decreased one shilling. From that you will get some benefit. Bags, bales, and woolpacks, are to come in free now, as if we cannot produce them. Fencing is to come in free. I apprehend that is for the accommodation of runs at the South. Nails, tacks, rivets, weighing machines, grindery, and pegs, these are the only articles on which there is a free reduction. Copper manufactures I do not, think we can produce them, or cabinetware and lacqueredware. Arsenic, quicksilver, spirits of tar j I have a sort of vague idea that these are used for sheep washing. (Laughter.) And that is what it means, that this tariff is so constructed as to mean only an addition of about £18,000 to the taxation of the North Island, and a coiresponding reduction of the taxation of the South Island. That is not what I call protection, at any rate, for this part of the country. lam fully prepared to support the encouragement of native industries in the mode in which I hive mentioned —cither by lei ting in the raw material for it free, or when the revenue requires a tax to be put on, to put it on the manufactured article that we can produce ourselves —or by giving a bonus or an encouragement to the production of any article for the purpose of starting it. And I could not say it better than the Colonial Treasurer said it the other night here, that it ought to be temporary. "We take as the basis of stimulating aid which we desire to see given—that the industry chosen to be aided shall be only such as the circumstances of the country will make so successful that one. may feel convinced that within a reasonable period after those industries have been helped to obtain a fair footing, the article produced by those industries will be more cheaply supplied to consumers, without a continuance of aid, than would have been the case had temporory aid not been given." I cordially coincide with that, but do not coincide with the policy which will impose, by a tariff arrangement, a tax on the raw material, for there is the difficulty; for probably those who have not studied Assembly proceedings will not see it distinctly. It is difficnlt to get a tax off, when once it is on. When you put on a tax to encourage an industry, it is difficult to get it off just when you

wish. It is a matter which will require great agitation to get off, especially a tax on food. But I will not go further into the argument. I did not come here for that purpose. It will have to be fought out hereafter, and I shall be prepared to go fully into the matter at the proper time. I have stated my views freely, and if they suit you —well. These are my views, and from those views I will notbudge for votes, or anything else. There is just one thing else. You have been advised to send down members to go on one side, to support each other, and yet you have been told that party government is the essence of good government. Where will be the party, if you send them all on one side. The cry seems to be that everyone who will not bow down to these borrowed millions will be ostracised. Everyone is to bow down abjectly to money borrowed ; and if anyone will not accept the dictum of an autocrat, he is to be ostracised and hav3 nothing to say in the government of the country. If ihut is your view, I will bow to it. I don't think it will be to your interests to drive out the men who have the interests of the province at heart, and not only at heart but in their pockets also—to drive them out for the sake of those who are merely gaping after borrowed millions. It has been stated that during the last session of the Assembly your representatives were, as on previous occasions, rendered powerless by being divided. Gentlemen, a more utter fallacy was never propagated by any Pres3. I hold in my hand an examination made by myself of every division list that took place last session, and I defy you to find them divided on any important question. During the last se-sion the Auckland members were more unanimous than upon any previous occasion, and on all important ques tious they were all but unanimous. Upon no important questions upon which any number of members voted, was I in'opposition to the majority of the Auckland member*, on no important occasion. I could give you the time on which each member of this province voted in a minority of the Auckland members. I shall not do so, however; it might look invidious in some oases, and I have no wi»h to raise any personal feeling. All I can fay is that if any gentleman doubts the fact, he is at liberty to examine the returns in Hansard where he will find 1 hat the Auckland members, on important questions, voted nearly unanimously, the exceptions being only one or two. You may very well guess that the Auckland members had some command in the House last session—t >at they carried some weight in the House, when such strenuous efforts are now being made to have such members returned as voted in favour of the Ministry. If they were unworthy of being attached to any party you would not have seen these strenuous efforts made to gain,them. I venture to appeil to the representatives here to-night, whether I am not correct in saying that on all important subjects they were all but unanimou-. It has been suggested that I have taken but gloomy views on the future of the province. It would be weM fo those who talk ol gloomy views if they had invested as much in it, or lost as much in it, as I h-ive. I believe, if properly administered, and if not smothered by an immense access of debt, and without an access of inferesf, that we must pay to the foreign capitalists,—if we can tide over the next few years, I have no fears for the future. Industry and economy are the essentials of progress; but if we are to accept the doctrine that borrowing is the essential of progress, we shall have dear cause to rue But my desire will be, that with these borrowed millions authorised by the Acts of the Assembly, that they shall be carefully, properly, judiciously, and economically expended ; that they shall be backed by industry to make them reproductive ; that they shall not be squandered on place hunters, and in works that will not be reproductive ; and if I could see that the members of the present Ministry would act on that principle, and not talk so much about it, I for one, should be willing t > aid them in that which they propose. There are many sentiments —there is no occasion to say more at the present time — probably before the writs are out I shall address you again. I shall be very happy to answer any questions you may put to me.—The speaker sat down amidst loud and pro'.o-iged cheering. — Mr. Hurst: I should like to ask Mr. Gillies his opinion on the Civil Service Act?—Mr. Gilliea : I was not in the Assembly in 1866 when the Civil Service Act w.vs passed ; but my long-cherished opinions are entiivly opposed to it. lam entirely opposed to the system of giving pensions. I believe in paying men well, and leaving it to their discretion to invest for the future. That Act was passed in 1866, without a single voice being raised a ainsfc it.— Vlr. Carr : Will Mr. , Gillies support in the Hou3e of Ropresenta- ! tives a bill giving the resi lents of a district the power to support a public - house ?— Mr. Hi Hies s I do think the residents of a district should have some interest in the matter. I do not think that the resi tents by a majority should have the power to exclude a public-house in a district, but they should have a fair opportunity for having their reasons heard for not granting a license.— Mr. Philips : You say the Auckland members have done their duty in the last session. What is the reason you contest the seat with them at the present time ?—Mr. Gillies : I am not now coming forward in opposiiion to the sitting members. I can only say that in regard, to one of those membeis—Mr. D-ignan—l have had great pleasure in acting in concord with him on almost all occasions, and on all occasions where we differed, of finding myself acted against fairly and honestly and straightforwardly; and in regard to the other member, Mr. Williamson, Ihadverygoodrcasoufor believing that he would not come forward again when I received the requisition.—Mr T.B.fcliilmoved a vote of confidence in Mr. Gillies.—Mr. Eastwood seconded tbe motion, which was carried by an overwhelming majority, only six hands in the negative.—Mr. George moved and Mr. Gillies seconded, a vote of thanks to the Chairman, which was carried by acclamation.— three cheers were given for Mr. Gillies, after which the meeting separated.