EXTRACTS FROM "HANSARD."

Ashburton Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 1870, 18 June 1888, Page 2

EXTRACTS FROM "HANSARD."

• * I LIOiSN-ING COMMITTEES ELECTION BILL. In the House on May 30th Major Steward brought forward for tho second raodingbis Licensing Committees Election Bill. In doing co he said :— Sir, the Bill which I have now tin honor to submit to this House for second reading is a very short meaaure, but one which, if passed, will have an important effect m eaviDg a cmsidorable sum of money during the next three years to tho local governing bodies of the colony, which circumstance, I submit, m the position m which we arc now placed, is one that deaervea consideration. The objects of the Bill are twofold—namely, firat, economy m administration, which will be effected if it is passer! ; and, secondly, the better administration of the Licensing Act, which also will bo one of its consequences. Addressing myself to the subject of the amount that would be saved to the local governing bodies were li reusing olectiono to take | place once m three years, instead of annually ns at present, I may refer to a return which was furnished on the motion of Colonel Trimble, the then member for Taranaki, m 1882, and which will be. found m the Appendices to the Journals of that year. That return Bhowa that m that year there were 381 Licensing Committeeßin the colony, and that the cost of electing these. QommUtaea was la no aaae ander £3, while In over a hnndted oees it ranged between £3 and £5, m nearly the same number of caeca between £10 and £20 ; and. as regards the remainder, the oost ranged from £20 to £59, and In one case amounted to over £100. The total cost of the elections In the year prior to that m whioh the return was made is shown by the return to amount to a sum which averaged about £17 per Committee, bo that the dlreot cost ( f these elections per annum is equivalent m round figures, to £7000 : henou It follows that if one eleotlon Buffioo for a trlennal period there would be a saving of no leas than £14,C00 to the looal bodies m that period. There are, bealdes, other expenses outside the direct expenses, whioh it may be taken would bring that saving Dp to ■no leas r a sum than £20,000. <Phat, I think; is a sum whioh should be saved, unleßS it can be shown that there is a great advantage In the more frequent elections. I think it cannot be shown that it is bo ; but, on the contrary, there are many obvious disadvantages, I would point out one whioh, I think will have great weight with the House. It is this : The gentlemen elected to the*L censing Committee must obviously be either gentlemen new to office and without experience, or gentlemen who have b?en m office before and haver experience of its duties. If we take the first alternative, of gentlemen newly elected, what follows? They are elected about the month of April, and the piincipal function they have to perform — namely, the business of the annu licensing meeting— occurs m June. They have only a few weeks m whioh to acquaint themselves with the circumstances of their dist'ic 1 , and consequently cannot be able to bring to bear any htnount of experience or any intelligent judgment m the matter. But take the other alternative — tha case of gentlemen who have been m office before and nre experienced, i What then h»ppeus? Those geutlemeh car-fu'ly oischarge their duty with regard to the public interest and convenience, as well as wih regard to the rights of the iiceneees. They find, perhaps, that some ono or more houses m. the district are not properly found m conveniorces for the public. Thess houses are found ro be falling into disrepair, aud the Licensing' Committee take care to warn the licensee that, unloss the defects are cured and the convenience of tho public pro?ided for, Vhen the next licensing meeting cones round the lioanse will not be renewed . Then, what occurs ander the "Byßtarfl of annual t-lout'ons? Why thi< ;■ that the 110-msee, If who m hla generation, and not disposed tD spend any money for the banefil of the public whhh he cm avoid, immediately goes r aid about amongst his friends before the election for tho Licensing Committee comes off, and qnletly Insures their vote?, and then his friends are. to everybody's surprise, elected to the new Committee, whioh doea not insist on those requirements for the public good being provided whioh the previous Committee demanded. Now, were the Committee la office for three years it would be abie to see that its decisions werj carried out ; and that would be a great advantage to the public fenorally. lam aware that sorno of the onorable gentlemen opposed to this proposal take the ground that they consider that the annual licensing eleotlon h an educational advantage from tho tec-> totalitra' point of view; but I think they altogether magnify any advantage whioh may acorue (a that dltvcion, and they fail to eeo how muoh they lose by the want of continuity and experience on the part of the Licensing Committees m the direction I bave pointed out, and that any advantage they think is gained by more frequent elections is far more than counterbalanced from the teototsl point of vlow*"by the weakness of the Lioonslng DpnjmUtees arlejog from tbo fact that they have to submit themselves, annually for election, Thlß Is a matter which is not now brought before the House for the first time. In 1885 a Bill passed Its second K'adirg by a conBiderable majority which oontalned the provisions of thla measure ; and reoently various looil governing bodies have made representations as to the necessity for a change m the direction this Bill seeks to effeot. Honorable gentlemen will see that the Bill is net an ambitious attempt to amend the lioensfDg lawc, although' they require amendment m . many 'repeots, because all 'the 'experience we have had of the various 'attempts (n that direction Bhow that if J had proposed a Licensing Apt Amendajen{; Bill the result would hava 'been that Bagh an enormous number of amendments would be introduced that (t would be Impossible to pass any moaauro The measure J Bubmlt now (a almp'y one, limited to one point, which caght to commend Itself to the conslderaof tbc House ; and, If the House will say, SB I think it will Bay, that the arguments I use, are stfficlent}/ strong to warrant their support, then $ truqt honorable members will sestet; me In oarrving tho Bill Into law- The Bill Itself requites very little explanation. It Is. almost a reprint of oUuses drafted by Mr Weaton, once a member of this House, and as regards draftmansblp it requires no ameudment. The details are very simple It simply provides that, Instead of there ) being two sets of machinery— the localoptlon poll and the Lloonslng-Commlttee eleotlon — ono set of maohlnery only will be required. The Reluming Offiou'r will act udder the Bill, and the time for the two elections will be Identloal. It will be seen that m order to make the dates Ident'osl it will ba necessary that l he gentlemen elooted to tho next Licensing Commit: teen shall hold office fur two year?; baCauso the looal-option poll wag taken In April lost or at the beginnlu^ of j;hls month Thereafter the *leotl6ns will 'be trlohnlal, and the office will bo held for three yearß, 1 beg to move the seqoncj ; reading of the Iti speaking on tbp BUI Mr Walker aaid ;— I sorry that the honourable member for the Tajer| ahoijld have seen fit to dl&lra f>r himself and hia temperance friend* all the virtues, because I can as&utfe }I >» fi.it some of the filnaereßfc friend* o' (.-inpo-anoe will be found among thoeo who are Bupportlne; the a* oonl reading of this BUI, I think alio f ri-p, eUJro that the rnembera of local ■>i .-. U a generally have the vince'reap desire t'. ej^ j iha temperanoe cause pkogroae, and • doucUealre t9 pee UQepgej; granted thftfc I

ou^ht not to be granted, or to do any thir g which wou'd pnt difficulties In the way of people exercising doe discretion on the subjeot of the liquor traffic. Bat, Sir, *O rcuat not shut oar eyes to faots. We have m our experience on this question an illustration of the old story that you oan take a horse to the water bub yon cannot make him drink ; for we have seen, over staoe the Licensing Aot has been m force, that people will not drink from this atrenra whioh la annually afforded to them, i regret very mooh that these elections have been a comparative failure. We have seen repeatedly eleotions at which not ona-ienth of the people entitled to vote aotually voted for the election of Oommiteomen. In faot, I map Bay that, generally apeiklng, the opportunity Is not taken advantage of by the ratepayers generally. . I know that m my district the operation of the Aot has been reduced to a mare faroe ; and. why t Because we are oompalled every year to hold au eleotion m every little Road Board' and town diatrlot. The Brat difficulty la to gat five man who ara bo far interested m the proceedings qffche day as to get nomination papers signed or to sign them thomielves Very often it has happened m districts with whioh I am acquainted, and, I believe, m many other distrlots, that it has been Impossible to find' the requisite number of persons to be nominated ; and the result han been tbat,for the w*nt of candidates, no Committee hn been eleoted, and the whole thing has devolved on the Government . This, I know, has taken plaoe this last year J and' it will oontlnue to take place unless there Is some ohaoga In the law. Elthec yon must inoreaße the siza of your districts, or else you must do something such as is suggested by this Bill. The honourable member for the Taieri almost seems to think that the expense is s matter? whioh need not be muob considered. "'"'■'.': Me Baxton. — Oh, no'j I did riot say that. Mr Walker.— l think that was the tone of the honorable gentleman's remarks. I can assure him that if the local bodies saw people taking a real interest m these eleotions they would think nothing of the expense; but they .have found that the votes oast do not numpet aimany as the shillings, not to s»y pounds, that the eleotion cost ; snd they may, nnder these circumstances, very fairly say that the people do not value the eleotlom or wlih for them, and that the money; expanded upon them (a wasted. I oan quite admit that if the people wish for- these annual elections, or if t bey game them^tbe means of exercising greater contrbj-ov^rla traffic whioh we will admit has done land Ii doing a great deal, of harm amongst ni, there would be very good Reason foe continning the present system: but at present the people will pot take advantage of that maohiriery ; and I am satisied fid that by making the eleotions triennial,— by holding them on the day on whioh the triennial poll is taken for the deoiaion of the^ question as 1 7 whether or hot there m&y be an increase of " licenses, — greater .interest would be aroused m the -whole question, and more interest would be taken m the elections; I will not say that better committees would be elected, because I think thai, on the whole, very good committees have been elected ; but T believe that greater m tor eat would be taken m the eleotions, and there might silt be greater energy m the direotion whioh our friends opposite fuvor. While on this subject, I might say that I think it would be a great secvioe to the country if some of our friends of legal minds m the Government would draft a measure providing for the elections for all local government purposes to be held on the same day. At the present time we aTe" perfectly bewildered with the cumber -of -elections that take place. As a fact, nearly all these elections are for the same purpose — the choice of men' to carry on our local government m its various directions ; and I do not see why we should not have one day m three years for the election of oar Count} Councils, and Road Boards, and Licensing Committees, and so on. I think if that were done our temperance friends would get help from many whose friendship they do not suspect. I shall support the second reading' 6f the Bill, and I do bo because £; have the best wishes for the success of. the temperance 011186. Mr Baxton — I have been somewhat pleased to listen to a great many of the statements made by the very many honorable members to-night, showing the extreme friendship of those honorable gentlemen towards the temperance canoe. JjJven the honorable member for Dunedjn South spoke as one of the stauncheßj; aqd most npble friends of the canse j an 4 scarcely anyone has spoken who has not represented himself as a friend of ternperano9. I am always pleased to meet with friends of this cause, and I shall be moßt happy if every one of those honorable gentlemen who have spoken m such f riend'y terms of the temperance cause, nay, if every member of this House, will Bhake hands with us and show their friendship, " don the blue," and go into the noble army of the humane society. I do think, Sir, that we have nothing at all to be ashamed of. What we do we do for the good of ouv follow-meDj and if we get a little bit extravagant sometimes I flank we ougn't to" be' excised; • X^ an^ ra|e, we are influenced by quite a different spirit m our intemperance from the spirit that animate others. Ours is a spirit of charity to our fellow-men. As regards the question now before the House, I do not see any reason why we ehquld want to alter the law m the way proposed by the honorable member for Waimate. I do not Bse any reason why -we should take this stand. It would be very much better if the Licensing Committees were done away with altogether, and the whole thing put into 'the hands of the public to vote- whether. we should have licenses' op not, or whether public 'hbdae^s should bsJ closed or not. My irapreeaion' is tihat if one-half of the public houses were plowed irj this «jnd other cities it would be better for the publipr-it woqlcl be better for alj poncernepV. I should, like to see the day when that takes plaoe. However, I shall most certainly oppose this Bill; In reply to the arguments against the Bill Major Steward maid : I will only say a few wordo m reply. The arguments that have been used against the BUI, m so far as they prooeed from honourable gentlemen who advooate temperance, while they do not lead me to think very highly of their talents as logicians, certainly inspire a feeling of sympathy with the objeots they have m view ; and those honourable members will have found, m all divisions that have taken place on temperance questions m the House, that I have always voted with them except when |;I thought that they were seeking to do anything that was unjust. It is a peoullar thing that the arguments used against this Bill have besn used against something ; which Is not m- the Bllliat all. Honour* able gentlemen who have opposed it have argued as to the great bonoS to. which have been brought about by the ! RoVooates of temperanca. lam entirely with them Id that j I never challenged lb m my ■peeWj nor is there anything m the $111 whioh trsl* Verses their statements. Then, they say, " What an undesirable thing 11 would be If the' power of the temperance advocated were weakened {" "there Is no 1 attempt ftt that' in oonneotiqn wfth 'the B.IU, ilfrd they have failed to show that the BJll would m the least weaken the Influence of the advocates of temperance. Some honourable members confound the localoption polls with the licensing eleotions. The time of taking the looil-optlon polls Is the time when the people make known their wishes on the increase or otherwise of l|censed houses m their distriot, and the , time of tue licensing elections is tbs time when they elect < person* to {jar*} do) those wlsheij and lucelyitiij bottwthlt

those persons aboold be elected for the whole term of three years, and have the power io insist on their decisions being cart led out, which Is not the case if ihclr places are to be taken a fevr months nfttr by men who may be elected by representatives of the exactly opposite lntorea'. Coming to the argument of some honour* ebla members who sympathise with me, and who would vote for the Bill but tha 1 they see a number of other things In the Ifcansing-laws which they would like <o hare amended : let me point out that, if these honourable gentlemen refuse to go (n the direotion of reform when they have the opportunity became thsy wonld like to go atill farther, tiny will nev<:r ■ucoeed m getting any reform rff acted. They remind me . rather of the old ■tory fn fables of the dog and the bone. He dropped the bone which he had m his mouth beoauae he thought he b&w something better io the water. I warn those honorable gentlemen who are voting against this Bill bicuise they wlah Dominated Instead of elected Benches that they will be no nearer the attainment of their desire by repeating this Bill, whereas If they assist m passing if they will be making a considerable aaring to the local bodies. The honorable member for the Bay of Islands commenced his remarks m opposition to the Bill m exactly the same way as he begins his remarks on every other measure to whtoh be ia opposed. He protests against auoh a large queition being Introduoed by a private member. Sir, this ia private members' night, and I imagine I am only discharging ray duty to the people of this country m bringing forward a> measure of praotloal utility to the local bodUe, We heard nothing of that kind said when the honorable member introduced his Kamo Kawakawa Railway Bill. Ms Speaker. — The honorable member most not make allusion to a former debate of the present session. Major Steward.— Very well, Sir, I will merely Bay th«t there were previous occasions on whioh the honorable member did not bring forward that argument against other measures, I yield to no Dan m this House m my desire to see the cause of temperance flourish, and I would not have brought this measure forward had I thought for a moment that It was In the least calculated to do any lojury to that causa ; but I submit that tbo arguments nsed against it during the eoorae of the debate have utterly failed to show that the change proposed will have " the effect which is deprecated, while tha argument which I and those who have supported the Bill have brought forward — that it will cause a very large saving to the local bodies— has not been answered I hope the House will pti? the seoond reading. The seoond reading of the Bill was carried by 44 to 28.