THE SCENE IN THE HOUSE

Ashburton Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 1714, 17 November 1887, Page 2

THE SCENE IN THE HOUSE

(rBR PRESS ASSOCIATION.) I Wellington, November 16. The Premier moved that the House adjourn till 7.30 p m that evening He I had not eeeo his way dearly what recommendation to make with regard to the question of privilege, and he hoped that the House would agree to an extension of time. He thought that probabiy by that evenicg they mkht h»ve arrived at a satUfaot-ny so : u ion of this rather diflbult qaeation. He t.'ok that opportunity of stating that he thought it <vaa vary muoh to ba-regretted that In the only dobae that had taken plaoe on this question the Speaker had not been treated with respect which was becoming to the House always. Unlesß they ohotred that rcßpaot he feared they woald Koon lobb that, oharactei which they had always possessed of being one of the beat conduoted sad moat dignified assemblies m the colonies He also considered that the honorable member for Maraden had been very illused, exceedingly ill-used, and had been ■at on. (dries of " Order.") The Speaker ruled, as a point of order, that it was not competent to refer to any business on the paper, as that would come on at a proper Mmc, In reply to a question fcom Mr Seddon, the Speaker said that hU order on the previous day had only applied to that day, and unless the House or the Speaker thought proper, the galleries would not bo again cleared, Mr Seddon said thai, on that understanding, he would aupport the motion for adjournment, bnt he should not be prepared to agree to it, if it were to be understood that the press and "Hansard" reporters were to be excluded, He should not want any farther proof of the great danger of ezclnding them than the rarnarka jußt made by the memher for Wallaoe. That gentleman had accused members of disrespect to the chair. The Speaker certainly thought that no Imputation of diarepp ot had been made. Bir Georgb Grey asked what obj«oiion there was to going on with questions or notices of motion. The Premier thought that when tuoh an Important question as tbii was under consideration the House shonld not go on with any other buei.ießß. The whole time at their disposal should be devoted to arrange this matter satisfactorily. Mr Scobie Maokerzie asked whether it would be proper and competent for the Speaker to give his opinion, with a view to facilitate the business, as to the propriety of the original question on the Order Paper. The Speaker said ;— " I may state that the first time I saw the qaeation was on Saturday morning. It struck me as being a peculiar qaeßtion, and I oald to myself I wonder wbat does it refer to : d >es it refer to clerks, messengers, or o inntablea. I took no more notice of it until X again read over the paper on Tuesday morning, and again the aa me idea occurred to me — ' What Ib it all about V The reason the ides occurred to me was this, that I was not aware of any messenger belonging to the Honee being >aken away for attendance on any member, nor did I know anything about ie all. It again ■truck ran as a peouMar question, and I Bftid to myself that probably, if thoro was Anything offensive In it, the olerk of tuo House, whose duty it Is to draw my attention to anything on the paper that may be regarded as off -naive, vrould ht»ve done ao He had not drawn my attention to it, nor did any member <>f the House mttke any allusion to It, Had I known that it contained snch » personal reflection npon a member of the House as It appears it did contain, I would have required the honorable member for Maraden to modify that, qaeation or withdraw it altogether." Mr Soobie Meokonzle understood the Speaker to say that m his opinion the question was an offensive one. The Speaker said It contained reflections whioh oould not be considered as otherwlso than of an offensive nature, Mr Seddon raised the point as to whether In view of the Speaker's present ruling, what Sir Julius Yogel Bald In the firHt place should not be made allowance for. The Speaker said the imputation made against the member for Maraden w»b that he was not a gentleman, and he oould not allow such expressions. Mr At. Thompson (Marsdon) said tbat, as his name had been brought prominently befoie the tlouae m this matter, it w»s on'y r ght, that ho sh uld say a few words upon it In patting this question on tho paper he had not the a ightust idea of anything pernonil whatever m reference -to Sir Julian Vo^el. His object was to ascertain whether there was any truth m i ho rumora ho had heard aboot the atrmt ihat Sir J iliu* V.)gol had rotrained iv hia employment two public servants sioce his resignation. He was perfuotly justified m putting that question, md ln> failed to sco anything personal m tho qaostlon. He never thought of njaklat; reft joUoub on the honorable gentleman's infirmity: fla had that day been to Government Baildlngs and made enquiries, and the resula was that he found tbat it was only alnca his notice was put on the Order Paper that any action had been taken Several members raised points of order Mr Thompson said though a new member he did not intend to be aat upon. He was proceeding to say that he thought bad taite had been shown, when the Speaker called him to order. Mr Thompson apologised. Ho wished to get fairplay, and no duubt ho would get it. As be was itating, it was only since the nottoe was put on the Order paper that any action was taken to send tho men back to their legitimate oooupatlon, and that daring the absence of an official of this House another is<an had been put on to his dutj, also that tpß constabulary man had beoa pat oa. l The Speaker said tbat these remarks would be more properly made when Sir Julma Yogel was In the Hoose. Mr Thompson submitted that if tho right were take a from members of tho House to inquire into tho expenditure of public monwy, then they had no business there. Ho maintained his right t> look into the expenditure of public money most carefuly, and that where public expenditure was involved there should bo no secrecy. Ho again declared that he had no intention of roflecting on Sir Julius Vogel'H infirmities, and maintained that ho had not exceeded his rights as a member of tho Uou^e Mr Leyfcstara asked whether it was incuinbont op Mr Thompson, after tho Speaker's ruling "thai; the question wab of au offensive nature, to apologise tp £he Houue ancfto the member insulted. The bpi aker did not reply . The question was then put and carried. 1 ho ''bouse roße at 3 30 p.m. QJje House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr £). Kichai'dtfOu said be had i been askod to t'xplain, on behalf of bir Julius Yogel, that ho h>id uppliui/ jto th« Governuiont turnout imuic^iuttily utter their tuk ng office to bo allowed to retain the Btifviavp pr tho orderly, he paying the orderly's wages. Minor Aikinson liad courteously replied m tlio a)^irj)iatiye. Ab to tho messenger, Sir Julius Yogel had informed the Government some days before Mr Thompßon'o queßtion was put on the Order Poner that ho did not wish to retain his services. Mr Tijompson fyad ftppUed that inorning s),t tho Dpfence Office, and had boen told by the Minis tor hat no intimation had bee^ regoivod from Sir Julius Vogol until the previouy day, Tho Premier said he was afraid there was a mit»underetundiug aoujowhero, Sir Julius Vogol had meutiuned tho matter to the Government immediately after they took cilice, and ho had unav/ored that lio would give the honorable geut^muu ©very oouvejojeoce be properly, could. Mr Wftltar g»ld |t wap a pity Major

\ Atlunson had pot said go thla afternoon j when Mr Thompson was making bla exI plan-ition. The Premier said he did not hear the explanation, besides he had the previous day given an exploit abatement of the j facts, and he o nvidcred that the Premier's words should be auflioient for the House. The Orders of the Day being oalled on, ' the Premier said he had been «nde»vour- < ing to arrange matters on the queatlon of privilege, bat regretted to say he had failed. He proposed to withdraw his motion " That Bir Julias vo,;el be called upon to apologise for the wordo used when Mr Speaker nam^d him, and that he be admonished bjr Mr Speaker f»r the U3B of saoh language," and to substitute ' That this House regretn that the member for Ohriatohuroh North should by his oondnot have rendered it necessary for the Speaker to name him" He thought this was a moderate and reasonable course, and would be sufficient to meet the oa*e. Mr Seddon deolined to withdraw his amendment, oalling for the " Hansard " report of. the words used, and the original motion was therefore put and negatived on the voices. Mr Fisher moved the second resolution proposed by the Premier as & further amendment, Mr Tumbull and Ballanoe pointed oat that Sir Julius Vogel'e conduct had never been questioned. Mr Steward took the same view. Mr Samuel aaid they ought to have the words complained of before them, j and Sir Julloa Yogel ought to be allowed to see them. There were oircumatanaea surrounding the caae which ought to lead them not to preas It. The member for Ohriatohuroh North should be allowed to see hia words m cold blood, and it ought also to be remembered that the Speaker had given his opinion that Mr Thompson's question was of Bn eff^natve nature. Mr Fitzherbert quoted the Standing Orders tv support <>i the assertion tbat the course of prooedure adopted by 'he Speaker was wrong. Mr Barron supported Mr Flatter's amendment. . They ought to uphold the Speaker right or wong. Mr MoKodz'o (Mount Ida) reviewed the whole oircams'anoes of the case, pointing out that it had been stated that Sir Julius V -gel apologised before leaving the , Chamber It muut be remembered that th* qa-Btfon w*s of » derogatory character, , and if suoh a question oould be placed on , the Order Paper any mana oharaoter could he assailed m a way that could not be , met until the harm was doni, even though , there might be no truth m the Insinuations conveyed. He proposed the follow* , ing Amendment rb fully meeting the oase : — "That this House, while regretting all . the ciroumstanoaa that culminated m the •■ naming of the honorable member for ; Ohriai church North, and the language that the honorable gentleman was betrayed into usiug, rtccep'B he apology he tendered bhsfote leaving the chamber." Dr Hoigkiuaon avid that Mr Thompson had not done wrong In any way, and he sympathised with him for the way m which he had been treated Mr Reeves (St Albane) said there waa no doubt Sir Julius Yogel had apologised on the previous day. He had taken notes of what fell from him. After stating that he had been goa^d to aay more than he intended, he remarked before leaving the chamber that if he had used language exoeedtng the limits of moderate language, I he regretted it. Mr Buchanan corroborated this, and Sir George Grey added that Sir Jaltus Yogel bad also expressed his gratitude fir the many peramcl attentions received from members of the House, and used words m his (Sir George Grey'e) opinion, intended to obliterate any palofnl impressions he might have oauaed. The Premier «aid he had not heard Sir Julius Vogel's words tn the aame sense as the previous speakers He distinctly heard the w-rd " If" prefixed, and moreover there waa no submission to the ruling of the Speaker. I', however, any one would get up and vouch for Sir Julins Vogel'a willingness to submit, he was ready to accept suoh satisfaction. He was actuated by no party feeling, but by a desire to maintain the dignity of the House. Mr Reeves Bald it waß true the word "If" was used, but m the way It waa commonly employed m making a sincere apology After onme further debate Mr Beddon's omondtnent was pnt and lost on the voic6B. Mr Mackenzie said he would not prove his Amendment, as he understood Sir Julius Vog l'» apology waa not ao complete as it should huve been. Mr Fkh. moved an amendment of a similar purport. On a divialou the amendment moved by the Minister of Education waß mnde the Bnbatnntivo motion" by 45 to 'SQ. Mr Ueoveß (loangahuu). as a further amendment, moved — " That m the opinion of this House, the Speaker exueed&d his powerß m naming Sir Jullu-3 Yogel, because ihe 138 f .h Standing Order, under which he aoted, waß not applicable to the oqse." Mr Seddon said the vote just taken was shown by the division Hat to be simply a party vote, and savored of the tyrannical persecution dealt out by the Premier In former years. He wanted to know whether Sir Julius Yogel would be given a ohance of traversing the motion if he willed, that night. He thought the Spoaker's ruling waa wrong, and trusted a Committee would be appointed to look up precedents. Mr Fiah also traversed the Speaker's notion, and reprobated the animus tt al had been abown m making thla a party question. The Speaker aaid, In amwer to n question, that every opportunity would be given to Sir JuHua Yogel to make on explanation either personally or by deputy if he oo wished, Aff'ar a lengthened debate Mr Reevoa' amendment waa put and loat on tha voices. Mr Fiaher's amendment waa then put aa a w> ole, and oarrlod by 43 to 25, Sir Julius Yogel was sent for, and on appearing m the House, the Speaker Informed him of the terms of the resolution first carried. Sir J. Yogel said he waa willing to withdraw bia remarks as not suitable at the time they were uttered, but if hlB words had been taken down he ventured to say there would not have been a dozen members who considered them reprehensible. What passed afterwards was more of the nature of a eqnabble between hlmaolf and the Speaker The resolution just read 1 waa ao mild In character and aoob'fal of interpretation, compared with that originally proposed, th?t ho had no reason to complain and little to regret. He proceeded to oonteat the legality of the Speaker's procedure, undor 138 th clause of the Sending Orders. Without overstraining tno mutter he considered that he had been treated m a mat it'Jurious manner, aud be oou d not let it drop at that stage fiia tlocse hnd condoned jLbe matter m order to give the Speaker satisfaction. 'He did not grudge the satisfaction he might have derived from the resolution. He proposed' to challenge the Speaker's 'progeßdfngQ on five or six points, but fn aa respectful a manner as possible and In a way '{hat might be moat convenient; to the Speaker. It thia oould' not bp do'fjp ho l f elf tha|;' the liberties of the Hoqbq be invaded. After adverting to many aots of kindness to him by members on Troth sides duriqg thp last threo yoare, he cpucludpd by moving the adjournment, which was agreed to, und th,e§F?Quae rose at 12«30. [Foul! OUB OWN COBBKBrONDiiNX.J WjjliLjnoion, November Jg, When the House met?th!a aftiioooa,

the presentation of petitions »od oth formal business, that lha House adjoar* till half-paat neven. He explained that this acMon was taken with a view to arranging aome notation to the peonllar position m whioh the House finda itaelf on the privilege qaestlon. Upon thla motion, various motions were pat to the Speaker upon the aff*lr of Jaafc night, Me Soobfe Maokenz'e eliciting the Speaker's opinion that had he known that the question waa really of each a personal and offensive oharaoter to rasmbera of the Houae, he would have ordered Mr 'I hompaon either to modify oc withdraw It ; whilat Me Seddon, who . complained of the exoleaion of the Press from the gallery last night, obtained an aaaarance from the Speaker that the gailerlea would not be cleared to-night, onlesa something transpired to make it necessary for the House or Bpe»ker to give an order to that effect, Mr Thompaon, the author of all the troublu, made another explanation, but was moat impatiently liatened to by the Honae, member after member rising daring his apeeoh and aubmltting points of order to the Speaker. The latter Beeraed Inclined to allow Mr Thompson great latitude, bat he was compelled to withdraw a remark to the effort that the action of members In interrupt* ing hla apeeoh on f .ivolous points of order was not m good taate. It waa very plain, during the few minutes which the dtaonsalon lasted, that feeling runa very high on the aubjeot.and I quite expect a hot dlaouaaion to-night, nnleai some compromise oan be effaoted. • The promiae of a eolation or compromise indicated m Major Atkinson's remarks, when moving the adjournment of the Hoaae tbia evening, strengthens the view expressed this morning that the Speaker h*B taken this extreme step against Sir J. Yogel, under a wrong rule. The Vogel* liea, however, declare that their chief will he no party 10 a compromise, as they feel that for several sessions past the Speaker h»s been ut justly severe towards Sir J. Yogel. It is rumored that Blr J. Yogel intends to fight the question to the bitter end, and that he will bring an aotloa aitainat the Speaker In the Supreme. Court for heavy damages. Another rumor arising from this business li to the effect that Sir G. Grey inte-da taking a hand m the game by moving that the high offioars of the Hoaae referred to by Sir J. Yogel as having a lust for liquor be called upon to resign, but I am notable to get the rumor authenticated. Mr Seddon Informs me that It Is true that be will move an amendment challenging the Speaker's ruling ai soon ai an opportunity presents Itself. The " Evening Post" to-night takes exactly the aame view a? to the ruling of the Speaker as that expressed by my talegrim this morning, and also takes tha Speaker to task fur ordering the galleries to be cleared . Wellington, November 171 At ten mluatea before midnight Mr Reeves' ameadmont, challenging the ruling of the Speaker was lost on the voices, Mr Fish's amendment lapsed, and Mr Fisher's amendment, that the House, regrets that the hon. member should, by his conduct, have rendered It necessary to name him, was carried by 43 to 25. The Speaker instructed the Sergeant at Arms to Inform Sir Julius Yogel that the Houae had come to a resolution respecting him, and 11 few mlnates afterwards the wheels of Sir J. Vogel's chair were beard In tha aorredor and the ex-Treasurer, having left his ohair and slowly walked to the front of the Opposition bench with the aid of two sticka, took hia seat amidst enters from both sides, The Spaaker then read the resolution to Sir 3. Yogel, and the latter spsaklng under strong emotion at first, made a speech of about half an hoar's duration, m calm, moderate and measured language* The speech waa, however, merely a review of the aots and a justification of bis action to a certain extent. He, however, held that tke Speaker was entirely wrong m bis ruling and Rave' notice of six mo* tlons whioh he intended tabling at an early date, challenging the ruling of the Speaker on six different points, Ho more- than hinted that he would take eivll aetlon against the Speaker for turnlDg him out of the Houae and claimed that the resolution passed by the Bouse was a vindication of hia action. This, it mast be aaid, Is quite the univeraal opinion, for It is it ia quite dear that it was entirely « party division, whilst the resolution neither asks fur an apology or retraction, and Is, In fact, absolutely meaningless. The House rose at 12.30 ptn.