SIR JULIUS VOGEL

Ashburton Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 1646, 26 August 1887, Page 2

SIR JULIUS YOGEL

AT THES ODDFELLOWS' HALL.

Last evening Sir Julus Yogel addressed j. 4 public meeting at the Oddfellows' Hall g Tho building was packed, and there were c present a large number of ladies, accom- 1 . niodation for whom was? found on the; | stage «nd on the two front rows of seats. ( The Mayor occupied the chair. s The Chairman introduced the speaker at 8 some length . . j Sir Julius Yogel, who was received t with loud applause, said that it gave him { very great pleasure indeed to re-visit t Ashburton, and to have been asked to , again speak here He would never forget j how kindly he had been received hero | three years ago It was here that he j made his first speech when he came back , to Now Zealand after his return from . England. He was within an ace of becom ( ing their member, and he felt sanguine ( that had he gone to the poll he would j have been returned. Be had come because i they had been so kind as to invite him , here, aud it was very acceptable to him to ] find such a large number of people present, { It was all the more kind because they had , seen very many political speeches m the : papers of late, and because the political j candidates had monopolised the greater part of the newspaper columns Ho had some difficulty m deciding upon the topics upon which to address them. He did not think that it was d' sirable to speak upon the same subjects regarding wh'ch he had addressed meetings elsewhere. If it were possible to speak about anything now, he thought that it was advisable that ho should do so. He would first make a few remarks upon the LAND QUBBIION In any policy embracing the encouragement of local industries the promotion of land settlement must enter. A great deal had been said regarding the perpetual leasing system As ho had said three years ago when he appeared before an Aehburton audience, he did not attach very much importance to the perpetual leasing plan, because he thought that when tho persona who were occupying land under that system were able to offer a tempting price to the Colonial Treasurer for the time being, they would be able to exchange their leaseholds for freeholds In the meantime the Byßtem was one which at anyrato did no harm, und was certainly productive of some good. It kept the Government out of tho mirketin the matter of competition with private lands put up for sale. It was notorious that there were many estates m tho market j uat then. The owners had not sufficient capital to work them, and if they were sold it followed that if they fell into the hands of persons with sufficient capital, they would bo able to work thorn with benefit to the colony. Therefore no harm was done because of the Government keeping out of the land market. He did not think that the m roduction of the landlord and tenant system was desirable. Lord Beaconafield had exposed its vicious principle, and had shown that under it it was necessary that three profits should be derived that for the landlord, that for the working tenant, and that for the laborer. Wo required here only the division of profit into two parts — that for the working owner, and that for the laborers whom he employed He waa one of those who used to think the Canterbury land system excellent. He thought that the Byßtem was a good one till the npset price of the land became less than the value for speculative purposes. Then the system became a very bad one. The greatest evils the country now Buffered under were due

to the Infilled price of land ; these prices

obtained their height m 1878 and 1879. Personß who at that time had speculated and lost — persons who bad exceeded the bounds of prudence — were now m the

habit of blaming the Public Works Policy

for the disasters they had mst with. Thia was ex remely unreasonable. A man who, by awkward handling, cut his finger might just as well blame the knife inßtrai of bis own stupidity. However, this seemed to be human nature, and m the case be instanced the rmn would have m all probability applied a very strong adjeotire to the knife, although had he used it properly lt might have bjen of the greatest sprvlo 5 1-> him. Thin waa invariably the case, and those who would hare benefittect by the Publ : c Works Polioy had they not over speculated were now the very first persons to blame that policy, and this becau c of their onrn lack of prudenco and forethought. Ho would now read them a letter which emanated from those who, at the present time, were moat unceasing m their hostility to him. Tbat letter gave him much prais9 for the inauguration of a policy which, with singular inconsistency,

was now being condemned,

7ha letter

which he referred to was written In 1878. It was written by Messrs Royae, Stead and Co to him at the tim I hat he was Agent.General for the colony ,« and lt was published by the oity editor of the

<( limes" m the city article cf that journal. Sir Julius read the letter that he referred to. It was a lengthly one but the effect bru fly was this ; It complained that the price of land was not nearly, as high as it should be, it maintained that farmers oould go on to the land and acquire a freehold In from three to five years— and that m nine-tenths of tho cases where they did so go on the land they succeeded and the lettet emphatically maintained tbat it was because of the Public Works policy inaugurated by Sir Julius Yogel that the country was m such a prosperous condition. He (Sir J. Voge)) aaked the audience to remember that th« letter that he had just quoted had been written by those who now, as the representatives of an Association

which he needed not to name, spared no pains to revile the present Government and all those who had been m any way connepted with tha Inauguration of the Pablio Works polioy. The letter justified tbe system of village settlement m tho part where it stated that the farmers could so on to the land without any capital. It proolaimed that Publiq Worka schema was. a success. They should remember that it was written m J. 876} whpn he bad lelt the colony, by gentleman who were now bitterly oppoalog the Govern^ ment. In the tpoeoh whioh had been delivorod by him recently, Sir John Hall had ridiculed the idea that the large Be ttler a objected to the oloso proximity of holders oi Birall blocks. This was contrary to the opinion whioh generally prevailed bs to the Idea of the large blookholder. The general imprecision was opposed to Sir John Hall's declaration, that large owners liked the proximity of small settlers; except on the prinoiple that the cat loved to dwell m the neighborhood of mice. In regard to the average slzo of the holdings m the colony they coull judge for themselves as to what they were. He would quote them some figures; m theße figures it was probable that m some cases the same person owned more than one holding, (ghere were 14JQ2 persons who had holdings over 100 acres and they held altogether 16,400,000 acres. The average extent of each of theso holdings was 1110 aores They found that

there were 1924 persons who held holdings of over 1000 acres, the aggregate being 12 630 000 acreß, and the average per hbldlug being 6564 acres. Aa he bad said of these 182$ ' holders of over lOQpaores, they had 12,^30,000 aores or an 'average of 0564 acres, bo that the 12,868 holders had 3,794,000 acres whilst 1921 holders had 12,630,000, aores. Another 12,521 holdors of 10 to 109 aores hold only 610,161 acres In the aggregate, the average being 48 acres each. He would leave them to judge whether these figures be£okeued an e^ual division of the land. It seemed* to him to be la tho highest degree* desirable that the number of persons with ■mall holdiDga eboo]d be largely Inpreaied

He now came to a question that was d grout interest to rainy of the dwelleis on thaee fertile plaice That was THE MORTGAGE BYSTBM. That system was now pressing rery heavily upon persons who borrowed money sotre years back, because the prise of produce had depreciated to a very ; g-eu extent. To illustrate his meaning; he wou'd give thena an imaginary oaae. Tei fears ago a man made arrangements to borrow money at a certain rate of interest. Thia interest would be estimated to absorb | annually half the value at that time •£ the prodace of the men's land* Now although the amount of interest had not changed, the value of the produce of the land had depreciated to that extant that the man now had to pay th« equivalent of three fourths for interest —so that whereas a few years ago he had half his produce for himself he sow only hid a qaarte-. It was easy to determine the effect this had had npon the two partners m the transaction — the borrower and the lender. The former had aU the worrt of the transaction, while the latter, the lender, reaped ali the benefit. Th*a amount of interest paid him never varied, and as the values of produoe etc had depreciated the money had of eomtM Increased purchasing, powor so that the lender was m reality obtaining ahlgherrate of ir.tereatnow than when it was fixed. This state of things was, however, beginning to remedy itself; the p~ofitablenesa of lending money upon mortgage had made itself so apparent that lnrge number* of persons who hid money sought to invest it m this nnde. Of course the ran this cc-asioned upon tbii oleu of inreitmont afficted the rate of interest, and those persons who were able to re-bo»row aould vasty improve their poiltion, Thfi, however, he was bound toeay, only applied to persons who borrowed considerable saint. The poor straggling men who only borrowed small sums suffered very great diaadvantageo and were much handicapped, The charges on their loans were by reason of the smallness of the sum borrowed proportionately larger than 1 those In connection with large amount*. The small man did not obtain the same consideration from the lender, became It was not worth the latter's while to deal 1 wlih small sums. There was no doubt the small man was very muoh handt* ' oapped and the oomplalnts mtde In Otago ' and Canterbury of the sufferings entailed • by the system had a great deal of truth 1 m them. Another trying feature waa » that m m y oases the firmer wat tied ' down to dealing with the lender— -to 1 ing and Belllog through the latter ; and In t addition to the many commission! which r had this to be paid the farmer was not > allowed the freedom of his discretion. In • the disposal of his produce, and could not i sell m the market where the transaction i would be most profitable, I A LOCAL MABKBT. . • a Sir Julius then went on to say that he did not see why (he prices of grain and 8 prodnce m the local markets should be t dependent on the prloes that obtained c thirteen thousand miles away. The total gross yield of agricultural prodace I was £10,830,000, and of this about 0 six millions, or far more than half, were r required for local consumption. Yet, ai Q be had said, prioeß were regulated to a; c large extent by prices ruling on the other 0 side of the world, and the fact remained that the necessaries of life were not Q always supplied to the persona consuming them here at prices which were remuherar tiveonea. Thecontrol of the market was two Q much m the lisnds of those who profited B by tho export trade./ Why should the ' farmers be at a loss on account of the c production of the necessaries of life* 1 Everyone was bound to consume them, d ' and the farmer was entitled to a fair c profit on them There were three features which he thought would remedy the present unsatisfactory state of affairs. £ These were : First, a larger population ; , secondly, an extension of the co-operative system ; thirdly, a more direct Inter* ,f ohange between the farmers and those who d comumed ; and he might also add a less c pronounced oredlt system. With a U condition of matters sb would be brought c about by these means less control wo aid [ t be m the hands of those who took more (t account of exporting prodace than of the 8 market fur it within the colony. "They , were told by the Freetraders that the it first o y - j ;ct was oheapness. If that eon- . elusion were tight the community would [a be more prosperous were the prfea of j produce brought down so low that the a farmers would be ruined. This was ifc a legitimate ojncluslon to draw from Q the Freetrader's argument that he had r referred to, but he thought that they a would agree with him that nothing oould be more erroneons. In his opinion coun» tries wera most prosperous when wages g ruled high and things were sold at rei( j munerative prloes. Every country of whloh he had a knowledge had been most prosperous under these conditions—California, In fact the whole Faoifio slope, and t Victoria were oases m point. He would at direct their attention to the fact that lt when wages were high it wm not neoes* j( j sarily the case that the cost of production was increased. An eminent engineer had lt told him that he oould produce more i( j and far better work m California where , c wages were 10s a day than 'In India 10 where wages were only lOi a week, j Supar and cotton were now produced for j much I©3« under paid labor than when • they were worked under the system of j r slavery. A common error existed In attaching moro Importance to the price r that obtained outside the country than to ' that within it. Even m the great ex* d porting country, Great Britain they found, taking the mean of 1881 and 1882, that ' of the £880,000,000, the produoe of its mlnss and manufactures, on'y ■J £25(5,000000 were exported. Farmers v were told to attach more importance ip to an export trade than to local consumption ; but they were led into *n ifc erf dr bepauso the more of tag produce tiftt was raised within a country, was con* I sumed m it, th.c more" prosperous ' that country was. A gpeat deal had been said about if; being necessary to send our- " produce Home m order to pay the interest 0 pn our indebtedness. This was a fallacy. and he showed th.at if they exported nothing, if they had so large and 11 proaperous a population that they can- ) Burned all that they raised, it was nonsense • to say that they could not pay their debts ; r tho interest on their indebtedness would ' be paid all the same. Ho would like to g Bay a little about the

TABIM 1 QUESTION. He had been told that the agricultural population particularly objected to the proposed increase of the tariff, because it would not benefn them. He had endeavored to show that what would benefit the community as a whole would result m benefit to any eection of it If we had a large population profitably employed, the farmers would reap very great benefit, because they would have a local market am} hot be dejDemjent on the Capricaa of markets m ofh'er' parts of t^e w/orjcf; % denied that the tariff proposed was uoc framed reasonably m ihe interests of the farmers. Porhapa none of the proposed increases had been ridiculed more than those on farinaceous products, such as sago, corn Hoar, and starch. They had it that these articles were essentially manufactured from that homely article, the p.qtafoj and he was aj; a loss to know why we jnight not jiiWas welj use. the m-qd'gct of the locally gro it n potato instead Of getting it from ehewhere, In iegard to fruit and pickles, both these could be produced within the colony, and of superior quality air! to great advantage. He read a letter signed " Arawa," which appeared m the ' Otago Daily Times" some months ago, aud which he had al«o quoted m tho House last session. Tbia j^ut the ciiee co etrons'y for the forme*

that he fell justified m reading it to them There was practically no limit to the extent to which the fruit-growing industry might be developed m New Zealand, and he thought it afforded a large and profitable outlet for the enterprise of the farmer. Before he left the question of farming, he wished to say a tew words. In 1884 it was intimated that tho Government realised the difficulties farmers suffered from on account of the high rates of interest on

ADVANCES ON LAND. He had sketched out the outlines of a measure which the Government might possibly introduce, but becaUß© of the violent opposition of vested interests, it waa taken no farther. Perhaps it was not generally known that last session the Government prepared another measure. It was of ft different character, and he thought no exception could be taken to it. He wm alive to the desirability of farmers being able to obtain money at ft much leu zate of interest and free from the harraaslDg restrictions of belDg compelled to bring and sell through certain channels. Of course it had not been feasible to bring down the Bill last teuton bnt he wai In hopes that the Government would be able to iatrodaoa it dating the forthcoming session. WAGES. After what he had said about the question of wages it was right that be •hould make it understood that the Government ooold not give more for labor than the prevailing rate. It. was not to be expected that a Government conld artificially raise or foster the rate of wages. That rate was regulated 'by demand and. supply, «nd the Government •hould not pay moie than the current rate. High wages would oome when they had a Urge population profitably employed. The Government wished to see the rate well maintained, and he was convinced that the employers were wrong In wishing otherwise. He referred to the instance given by Mr Buxton m his recent speeoh, of agricultural laborers only receiving 10s a week. That was j not proper and it was a oiroumstance all should regret. He was told that recently a bigh financial authority had stated that the best hope of the colony depended on a large redaction of wages. He held a view as contrary to tbii as It was possible to oonoelve. He had shown them the two sides to the question. One side advocated low wages, cheap imports, Urge holdings, and small holdings discouraged ; the other side held out for high price?, high wages profitable local production and numerous email holdings.

BBTBBNCHMBNT. In regard to retrenchment he would ■ay that the Government would be willing io| Introduce a vigorous and severe retrenchment if the House was willing. He had, however, yet to learn that the Honse was willing, because he bad had experience of its sincerity m this direction. If membiri were willing to accept retrcnohment m their own districts all would be well, but he had yet to find that they were io. In any case the

CUSTOMS KEVBNUE Would have to be fortified. The rovenue had fallen to tuch an extent that it would not be Mfc to allow it to remain where it wm ; and the Increase Customs duties was a meaiare of safety incumbent on any Government, He referred to the large fallln? off m liquor and said that tbere could be no regret regarding this, because it betokened increased bablle of sobriety He had been told that thia Bobriety was foroed upon the people by re*Bon of their lack of money and that the old Adam was there it ill, though they had no means to gratify it. This might be to a cortalo extent true, but tbere could be no doubt whateror, that habits of temperance were becoming more and more the rule and that there had been a jreat change m the haHta of the people. If the Government fcund that the increases proposed In the Customs duties and Property Tax lei to such an Improvement m the revenue as to again justify a reduction ho thought It might be well to see whether that reduction might not take the form of A reduction m the BAILWAY BATES The matter of railway rates was one that touched the whole population and especially the working classes. It was his ambition to see the railway rates reduced to the lowest possible extent consistent with prosperity, and he would Ilk* it if it were possible to have m New Zealand the lowest railway rates m the world. Sir Julius Yogel then went on to refer to the reduotJon m rates for etrriage of grain made by the present Government- In 1881 the rates were - 10 mllet, 4s 4i ; they were now 3* sd. Otheruratei were as follows for 1884 and .the pmeottime, respectively :— SO miles, 10s 2d, 8s 8d; 100 miles, 14i 43, 12i lOd ; 150 miles, 18s 6d, 17s. In fact the present rates were lower than the old provincial rates, they were lower than those of 1884, and almost as low as those m force before the late Government made the Increase, The charges for the periods he had mentioned were as followi :— _ .

10 mis 50 mis 100 mis 150 mis s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d.

Undet pf oTlndal system 4 4 1111 18 3 - 1883 ... 3 6 610 Jl 0 15 2 1884 ... 4 4 10 2 14 4 18 6 Present time 3 5 8 8 12 10 17 0 He would say a few words about the MIDLAND RAILWAY. To hear some of the objections which had been raised to this work, one might •oppose that the contractor intended carting the land, line and everything connected with it out of the colony. The Midland Hallway would directly and indireotly confer incalculable benefits on both coasts of the Middle Island. Be could not help remarking that for the sake of our Parliamentary institutions it was a ponry spectacle to Bee men who had aupported the Gpvernme&t on account of tbp Midland line, deserting them whep they thought the line was secured. A spectaple euch as this did not redound to tpe predlt of their Parliamentary institutions. The members fa whqm he referred bad, however, been somewhat ereolpitate he thought, for he was very much mistaken if the necessity i\i not •rise for some fresh legislation m connection with the Midland Railway. THE GOVERNMENT. There had been » great reaption from the feeling against the Government im mediately after the end of last session. A series of savage attacks of an extreme nature were made upon the Ministry by comparatively irresponsible persons. The leaders of the Opposition, however, could not support these attacks and the consequence was the people began to think for themselves, the result being, as he had said, that there was a strong reaction In favor of the Government (loud applause and cries of "No")— a very ■trong reaction (renewed applause and erleiof "No"). What otherwise oould tbey expect when irresponsible persons made wholesale charges, which the leaders—^he responsible men— would not support. The leaders only blamed the Government for 06tUln faults, which, If tbey were faults, they had them selves shared m. A member had lately told him that be did not reoognlse these leaders and Government after Government would be turned out till one was obtained which would satisfy him and those ifho thought with him. It reminded him (Sir Julius) of a football match m whioh man after m»n as he got bold of the ball was hurlad down and trampled upon, and after along and arduous game neither side scored. The Government stood before the country m the full light of day. They asked for fair consideration, not only for what tbey had.done but for their future poHey. They did not claim that they ware infallible or that they possessed Wsinttpral powers, but tbejr claimed

tint «h«»y had dono the b^st th y conld In tho facj of a vox-itlc>us opposition. In spite of this they had a record that no Government noed be a&haimd of. They bad given encouragement to local industries, • hough not. to that extent that they deeirec?. Tit y had pnoureged the coal industry and it was tiovr Been that this had been so iffcctual that steamers were being s<?nt for expressly for tlie purposes of the coal trade. They had inaugurated the Midland Railway end theNorth laland Trank Railway. They had erc^umged the fisheries and had been lnstrumt>ntal m improving the mining industry and m promoting the settlement of tho land. They h«d paolfied the nativo race, till now peace reigned between the Maori and he European. They had stopped the horrid system of Native had shaking and th»y had done away with that hate'ul measure, the Roads and Bridges Construction Act substituting for it one that had baen received with approval throughout the colony, the tot by which Government could adv.ince loans to Local Bodies. They htd so provided by legislation that no misapplication of loans, such as had taken place m former years could henceforth be possible. Aa be had told them the Government had reduced the railway rates. Although ha had not boasted much of their efforts m the dlreotion of retrenchment they had made arrangements for future material reductions. They had succeeded m having New Zealand fornied one of the naval stations of the Empire. Tho Government had kept down taxation and they oiry now asked for an increase, when those pa sent would bear him out lv saying that when he returned to the colony In 1884 it wa? anticipated that there must inevitably be a large increase of taxation. I The present Gorernment had reduced the Property tax to half what it hud been and although they had been compelled to again increase it somewhat it was balo* the average of former years. They had had a surplus for the first and second years they had been m office aod though last year they had had a deficiency of £92,000 this waa owl. g to a rednotion m the tevenue that the Government coild not control. He had now given them tho record of the Government It would have been a better one but for the antagonism of the Opposition. They bhould not be bo unjust as to cons'dor the Government responsible for the depression ; it arose from causes entirely beyond their control. He could discern signs of better times. Tho rate of interest was falling, which would give great relief. Land would rise m value, and there would be more demand for labor. The Government concealed nothing ; the Opposition dißgUßised their hand and gave no inkling of their policy or of their leaders. What the Government asked the colony to do was to give a fair and dispassionate verdict on the iesue before it. If a change were desired ; if it wero wanted to change the present Government for one of inexperiencel men, they would bow to the decision ; but they were confident that no matter what Government were m office, it would be impossible for it to strive more honestly to do its duty than tho present Government had. If, on the other hand, the verdict was, as he believed it would be, given iv favor of the Government, ihen.it waa desirable that they shoa'd be armed with the strength of such a msj >rity as would enable them to cany iut the measures required by the country. Sir Ju'ins'concluded by thanking the audience for the kind hearing that had been accorded him. Re resumed his seat amid loud applause. The speech was listened to with very great attention throughout and Sir Julius Yogel was frequently npplauded during its delivery. Sir Julius explained that he was willing to answer questions, though, not being a candidate tor their suffrages it was hardly the orthodox. thing] to put ..him through his facings.

The Mayor said that it would be hotter 'or all qaeations to be pot m writing. •

A hunt of written queetiona wore accordingly handed up. Some of them referred to topics dealt with m the speech, and others touched on entirely new matter. Sir Julius replird to the majority m a full and exhaustive manner and as the querieß were extremely numerous, a great dealjl of time was m conacquence taken up.

The Mayor announced that a number of questions of a frivolous nature had been handed up. These he wound not hand to Sir Julius, but if the questioners liked they could themselves personally ask them.

Mr D. Willlamaon proposed a vote of thanks to Sir Julius Yogel for his address that evening Mr Williamson spoke at some length his re* marks being frequently interrupted by applause and manifestations of d'ssent. One of his remarks elicited the term " both" from Mr Purnell who was sitting near him.

Mr Williamson thereupon took accaslon to refer to Mr Purnoll having said at Bakaia, that Sir Julius Yogel was being brought to Aihbutton to gain support towards Mr Walker's candidature. Be uaid that no one knew better than Mr Purnell, that Sir Julius wns invited to oome here long before he (Mr Purnell) had announced his candidature (applause and uprrar.)

Mr Williamson was proceeding with his remarks when further uproar ensued, during which some one m the ball oalled out for '* three cheers for Purnell." The call was responded to.

The Mayor called for order and asked he meeting to hear Mr Williamson.

Mr Williamson continued, but was ■objected to freqaent Interruptions. The Mayor again called for order and eald that those who were making the noise would be sorry for it on <he following day. He said that Asbburton had ai vrays had a good name for affording fair play to all and he beseeohed them not to forfeit that reputation. Dr Trevor seconded the motion. Qrles were raised of "Purnell," Mr Par Dell rose to his feet bat was greeted with a storm of groans amid which cheers were given for Sir Julius Yogel and also for Mr Purnell. Mr Purnell could not be heard en the platform, bat he eald something to the effect that he would take another opportunity of replying to Sir Julius Yogel. The Mayor put the motion. There were a nambei of " Noes " and he called for a show of hands, Quite a forest weDt up and the Mayor deolared the motion carried unanimously.

Sir Juliuß Yogel briefly returned thanka. He denied that he had oome here to gain support for any candidate. He would not be guilty of such presumption.

A vote of thanks to the chair olosed the meeting.