PARLIAMENTARY.

Ashburton Guardian, Volume V, Issue 1287, 23 June 1884, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. \ Satckday, June 21. | LEAVE OF ABSENCE. ■ A message from the Governor notified that he had give”. 1 'ava for the session to Messrs Peter and .Martin. BILLS. It was abroad that private and local Bills should next session go on from the stage where left this session. The Council then adjourned till 11 a.m. on Monday. [by tbleoeaph.] Monday, June-23. The Council mot at 11.

TARANAKI harbor ENDOWMENT. I The Hon Mr Waterhouse moved that the payment to the Taranaki Harbor Board of one-fourth of the proceeds of , confiscated lands bought from the Maoris j is altogether unauthorised by law, and ought to be discontinued. He urged that by the terms of the Act only one-fourth of the proceeds of the ordinary waste lands of the Crown at the time of the Act being passed were to go to the harbor, and ho blamed the Audit officer for not insisting on the observance o ( the law and not reporting to the Legislature the unlawful payment of one-foucih of the proceeds of confiscated land to the Board. He attributed this exceptional conduct to the political position of the members representing Taranaki. The Hon. Mr Oliver argued that the . terms of the Act covered what had been done, and that any question in reference ; to it would be an intricate legaf point. . He quoted several Acts in support of his > contention, and said the point raised had been fought out and decided in the other s House. - The Hon. Mr Wateehousb said it was 3 a most important consideration, for. if what Mr Oliver said was right, and the a Crown resumed pre-emption, one-fourth , the value of an enormous area would go o to the harbor. He hoped the matter o would receive careful attention, and in a the meantime withdrew his motion. Y The Council then adjourned ti 11.7 30, as t no business had come up from the House.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Satdkday, June 21.

The House re assembled at 2. SO. GUM DIGGING AREAS.

The Hon Mr Rolleston said that he had certain information in confirmation of his assertion that Sir George Grey was responsible for the issue of large areas for gum digging purposes. He had wired for further information in confirmation of that assertion.

hawkb’s bat land board.

Mr Smith complained of the irregularity in the matter of nomination of men to serve on the Land Board in Hawke’s Bay. It was notorious that these men and the Government officials had taken advantage of their official information for the purchase of lands,to the prejudice of the general public. The motion for adjournment was put and negatived, and the House went into Commiitee of Supply.

IN SUPPLY.

On the motion that supplies be grauted for the period ending Slat August, Mr Montgomery said that they had now before them a definite statement of the real state of the colony up to the end of the financial year. hey began the year with a ba'anca of L 35,000, and their expenditure had exceeded the income by L187,0C0. That was a m .at unsatisfactory state of matters. The more so that it did not disclose the full measure of their deficit. Since the Slat March last the deficiency had been on the increase, so that they weie not in a position to grapple with the difficulty. The estimated revenue of the past year had been overstated. In the pissing of estimates the Treasurer was warned that such would be the case, but be derided that opinion. The low price of wool and also of grain was attributed as a reason for these failures in revenue, but at the time the estimate was made the price of both of these commodities was low. Such being the case ha could claim that as a reason why they should not trust implicitly to the Treasurer, but exercise their own discrimination, lie contended that the taking of the Post Office trust funds was antagonistic to the Act thereon. He was told tfa.»t on the 31st March last they had L 398,000 deficiency bills outstanding, and these were not redeemed, and with these he was about to ask for it would make on the Ist September next a total of L 698,00 > deficiency bills, which, together with another debt proposed to be contracted for public works, would make a total of L 798,000, and judging from the present appearance, whoever returned to these benches after the elections, would have a difficult task before them —a task far more difficult than the Government that took office in 1879 had. The only remedy proposed by the Treasurer was to live within their means. He asked if the Treasurer had lived within his means five years ago ? When the Government took office they were* pledged to economy, and this was the outcome of it. When they asked the Treasurer to make reduction last year he absolutely refused to make it. This was the outcome —a deficit of H 62,000. Mr Petrie complained that a sum of L 24.000 on the schedule for last year’s worßs had not been spent on the Coast harbor works.

Mr Holmes then rose, and was speak ing at the 5.30 adjournment.

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7-30. Mr Holmes continued the debate

Under the Inscribe I Stock Act a rum ol

L 250,000 was raised. According to the Act that sum could only be raised by order of the Governor in Council. He hadbeen informed that such an order did not exist when the money was raised. Thb intention of the Act was that the amount should be raised in small sums as low as L&, whereas it had been raised in a lump sum. He further charged the Government with having dealt with the public moneys in a manner which alone could be dona under authority of Parliament, Alluding to the cause of the present depression he said that the Treasurer had shown his utter ignorance of the causes which he had attributed it to, namely the low price of grain and wool, whereas it arose from the fact that the land had bean sold on deferred payments at such exorbitant prices that the buyers could not promptly pay the amount. The price of money was also a great hindrance to the general prosperity. Had the Government been true to its trust, it would have borrowed capital at 4 and lent it out again to the bond fide settler at, say, 5 per cent. The imports exceeded the exports by some millions of money. This state of things was all very well for a country like England, which derived its income from ■every quarter of the globe, in the shape of interest on the borrowed money. Here, in New Zealand, we had no such source of income.

Mr iSHfepfIARD reviewed the question of taxation, and concluded that the statement was not quite so unfortunate as some of the previous speakers would have them believe.

In reply to Mr Montgomery, who stated that an impression was abroad that certain gentle uen if defeated, or who feared to stand an election contest, would be called to the Upper House, as to when the election would ta»e place,

The Hon Major Atkinson said that the Government wanted to be guided by the opinion of the House, as they recognised they were in a minority, and as regards the remainder of the question he would he

in a better position to answer it altar consulting with bis colleagues, which would be done at once and an answer given before they separated. He went on to say tbst he would now reply to the remarks made by the speakers generally. He contended that Mr Holmes’ political ecoi no my that an excess of imports over exports was entirely wrong. His contention was that an excess of exports over imports was a good sign, and he saw with approI hension that the latter were getting near I the former. It was a sign of a large I amount flowing into the colony for investI meat, and nothing would give him greater | pleasure than to come down next year I and tell them the difference was much

greater than it now was. They were cold that they started last with a credit balance of L 187,000, and certain adverse conclusions were drawn therefrom.

They were told that a Deficiency Bill has been issued amounting to L 390,000, whereas it was ouly L 318,000. Agaiu, they paid the deficit of the Treasury Bills, so that by subtracting the one from, the, other, it left L 245,000, and 6u further comparing the figures it would be found that his statement was that the deficit was only L 152,000, as he stated the mistake arose from the fact that the figures had been placed on the wrong side of the account. Then, again, they had paid the outstanding liabilities of last year out of this year’s revenue. In that way they had paid L 176,000. That fact had not been taken into account in the figures produced by Mr Holmes. By reference to the advance account it would be found that last year the account s;., , i. 79,000, and this year it was only So that if , he wanted to cook the deficiency he might , have taken credit for the balance and reduced the deficit accordingly. The fact that they had not done so ought to give them confidence in the financial honesty of the Government. After arguing the point further, he went on to say that the House would thus perceive he ' had L 791,000 more than they had thought of. The tale of finance with the Crown was the ezaot difference from that of the individual, the latter looked first *to his income and then, shaped his-expenoiture accordingly. The Crown did exactly the opposite. They estimated their expenditure first, and then ' they considered as to the beat mode for ~ raising it. The expenditure had to be determined first, and the revenue had fallen L187,u00 short of the estimate. To give coloring to ihia imputation certain items of revenue which he enumerated had been conveniently left oat of the calculation; when they told the colony that there was so much to the bad they should also tell it that they put L 250,000 into the sinking fund. Had they not paid that debt they should have been a very considerable sum to the good. The particulars of all their liabilities had -been laid on the table, and he-could not understand what was wanted when they' were told that a list of all their liabilities was wanted. They might have refused to - spend a considerable amount, which was spent on railway stuck, icon,, etc. . But if they had done so they would have, at a bad season of the year, stopped the works of the colony, and thereby brought about a great deal of misery and distress, which had thereby been averted. It was one of the misfortunes of Government that it had either to run the risk of a party censure in a case of this kind, or else the risk of a serious disaster to a large section of the, public. He denied that the expenditure had increased as had been stated during the last few years, and in support of that contention he quoted largely from the financial statements of those years. Whenever there has been an increase, he was always careful to point it out It was not true that the Government had increased departmental expenditure since it came into office. The fact was they had greatiy reduced it. He saw his way to make the revenue of the year provide for its service. They had year after year been reducing departmental expenditure. He had asked the Committee to consider this point. The reply was—No ; let the Government do it. * He had taken the matter ia hand, and was now prosecuting the work. They found, they could not make reduction. Wuat was required was a reorganisation, and reorganisation was a work of time. Referring to the inscribed loan he said they were, particularly speaking, only paying 4 per cent. He denied emphatically they had, as had been alleged, broken the law in these matters. Rvery step they had taken was taken by the Council and the advice of the law officers. He denied that larger rates of interest were paid in New,Zealand than the investment warranted, or that ths depression arose from causes like this. There were unwise men in all classes, but the bulk of the people knew very well how to take care of themselves and their own interests. He denied that a new Treasurer would have the great difficulty deputed if such a change took place. Neither as regards the Treasury or the Public Works Department would . any difficulty be experienced, .Representations had been made that they had unduly retarded public works. He bad shown that he was in danger of incurring the censure of Parliament for carrying them on too fast. Sir Geobob Gbbt said that the Trea- ' surer had told them that ha could have made up the accounts better for himself. Accounts so flexible were unworthy of credence, and he would therefore not' look at their details. He ascribed the depression to the fact that the Government offered too small areas of land, and the competition thereby became so great that they were induced'to give larger sums for their holdings than their means warranted. In that wa

homes were broken up, and great persona] distress was brought about. The Trea. surer might laugh as he when h e said that these men should clear out. H was glad to hear the Treasurer deny that ho s had said so. He was now told by the Treasurer that the deputation in question had said theycould not promote agriculture of any kind, and that his reply was to them in that case we must all clear out.

It was a significant fact that the gentlemen who drew good salaries out of the public funds were not in the habit" of clearing out.

Mr Turnboll asked, could they wonder at the depression when three-fourths the of

product of the land was drained out of the

colony 2 Cannot some steps be taken to see that this land be compelled to be parted with for the benefit of the colony ? That was what was eating up their vital energies. These were the questions with which they should go to the country. He saw no hope for improvement until time had wrought its change in the general state of affairs. It distressed him to sea

how carelessly and unfeelingly the whole subject was treated. vVhac he proposed’ as a remedy, but despaired of seeing, was an annual Parliament. ,He moved

to report progress, which was put and carried.

The House rose at 13-10 a.m. till Monday at 11 o'clock.

(by telegraph ) Monday, June 23. Tfae House met at 11 o’clock, FLOGGING PRISONERS. The Hon Mr Oonolly said, in reply to Mr Feld wick that no warder had. ever been dismissed from the Auckland prison service for his refusal to flog a prisoner. Warders were required to administer such punishments, but as to what would be done m the event of their refusal he m not prepared to say.

Mr Moss on a motion 'or adjournment, protested against the wa.der. eihg ' oompellM to do this work. If it was necessary to administer snoh chastisement .be would suggest that the Judge, Magis- ■ • irate, or even the Minister of Justice, was -the proper person to do it. It was monstrous to say that a warder should chastise a prisoner in that way, and afterwards be entrusted with the charge of him. Mr Feld wick- and Mr Daniel denounced the infliction of such punishment. The Hon. Mr Conolly said this was not a question as to whether or nut such punishments should be inflicted. The only question was as to who should inflict tiie punishment. In England, and in this colony .too, the punishment was invariably administered by warders The alternative proposition was as to the propriety of appointing a public fUgellator, and he confessed that a proposition of that kind had never entered his head. The punishment was only inflicted in the case of brutal or disgusting offences, and he did not see his way to have it abolished altogether. Sir Q. Grey inveighed against the injustice done to warders in this matter. It appeared to him the height of injustice. It was only reasonable to ask that a person should be got upon whom this as well as other duties might devolve. The Hon Mr RollejTon denied a statement made by Sir ,G. Grey that Mr Oonolly was mainly responsible for the measures under which this punishment was provided lor THE GPU LEASES. Mr Rollesion explained that upon enquiry he found that no proclamation' had ] been issued in the name of Sir G. Grey as i Superintendent of Auckland re gnmfields leases. He found, however, that all the correspondence on the subject had passed through theoffice of the Superintendent, i In reply tea question, the Hon Mr Rollesion said he would withdraw the statement made, that the leases were provided for by Sir G. Grey as Superintendent of Auckland. Still, he held to the fact that they were so provided for by an officer under his immediate control. 1 On the motion of Sir G. Grey the de- 1 bate was adjourned. , i HEW MEMBER, 1 Mr Locke (East Coast) was introduced < by Colonel Trimble and Dr Newman, i sworn in, apd took his seat. 1 TIMBER 808 RAILWAYSA long discussion took place on the relative merits of the Australian and New Zealand timber for railway purposes. Mr McDonald produced samples of tottra and jarrah submerge i for the dif- _ ferent periods, showing?the former was much more durable. . Mr HursTHQUSB said this was the case where -timber was submerged, but not for railway sleepers. Aua.ralia took ten times as much timber from ns as we took from them. I -Ur Tawhai said-that an unlimited sup- h ply of pnriri was available in bis district. h Mr Mitchelson promised to make en- a qniries, and lifter further discussion the 8 matter dropped. C ORDERS IN COUNCIL. ' A motion by Mr Turnbull, to have all - Orders in Council gazetted, was withdrawn after discussion. [Left sitting.}