G.—2

192

246. You have told us, Major Kemp, that afterwards there was some talk between you and Pomare about an exchange—that Pomare complained that what you had given him, did not give him access to the railway, and suggested that you should give him half of No. 14 ?—That is quite right. 247. How long was that after the Court of 1886 ?—lt was in 1888. 248. Now, I have put in a list of payments made to you by Hector McDonald for rent, and he has given evidence on oath as to what sums he paid to the tribe by your direction, and what sums he paid to you personally. lam going to enumerate those he paid to you personally. The first payment he made to you was at Banana, on the Wanganui Eiver, in 1881 (all former payments having been made to the tribe), for £200. Then in 1884, he paid you at Upokongaro £150 ; and in 1885, he paid you at Palmerston £300. The amounts paid to you then amounted to £650. Did you spend that money on yourself, or in Courts and lawyers for the tribe ?—Some of this money was spent in conducting business in connection with the block. 249. And all you had yourself, was a certain amount brought to you by the tribe, to enable you to build your house. How much was that?— Yes. [Second part not answered]. 250. Saving as to the sums that were voluntarily given back to you by the tribe, you spent all this money on the tribe ?—Yes. 250 a. Since 1886, Johnnie McDonald has paid the rents ?—Yes. 251. Did you order John McDonald to pay £400 to Baker the lawyer?— Yes. 252. Did you afterwards instruct John McDonald to pay Baker the sum of £1,300? —Yes. 253. How much of that was Baker to receive, and how much was he to give to the tribe? Was it £1,000 to be given to the tribe, and £300 to Baker ?—Yes. 254. Did you not afterwards pay to Mr. Baker, through Mr. McDonald, £21 7s. 6d. for costs ? —Yes. 255. Then the last payment that was made by Mr. McDonald to you was £400. Did not you instruct Mr. McDonald out of that to pay £100 to Edwards as a retaining-fee for the work while I was away in England ?—Yes. 256. And the other £300 you spent on the tribe in connection with the block ?—Yes. 257. Now'you appear to have paid very large sums to the lawyers, Major Kemp, and you say I have been acting for you since July, 1892 ? —Yes. 258. Have I received one shilling of those large sums you have paid away to the lawyers ?— No; I have not paid you anything yet. The lawyers and clerks and other people have cleaned me out. 259. You were asked by one of the gentlemen here whether you knew about a Proclamation under the Act of 1867, and you said you did not. Do you know about any Proclamation at all ?— What Proclamation ? 260. Did you know about the Proclamation that Mr , . Ballance arranged for ?—Yes, I had that Proclamation. 261. Is that the Proclamation in Maori [document handed to witness, put in, and marked " Q "] ? — Tes, that is my Proclamation. 262. Did you not before that Proclamation was issued receive from Mr. Sheridan £s?—Yes. 263. -And did you sign a pukapuka ? —Yes. 264. Captain Mair was the licensed interpreter?— Yes. 265. If Mr. Sheridan has told the Commission that that was simply an initial step towards your selling the whole block to the Government, was that true ? —No ; I simply issued my Proclamation. 266. That was the only sale that you had ever discussed with Mr. Ballance at that time ? Had he said anything about a State farm? —He said, "I want you to give me some land for a Government farm," and I said, " Yes ; I will do so when all the trouble is settled." 267. Did you ever receive this letter from Mr. Morpeth, about the Proclamation [letter of Ist November, 1892, read and put in, and marked " E "] ? —Yes, I received that letter. 268. Did you not, on the 18th February, 1893, write a letter to Mr. Ballance about that Proclamation ? Is this the duplicate of that letter ?—[Witness identified the letter; letter put in, and marked " S "]. 269. I am now going to read to you the evidence given by Wirihana Hunia before the Commission the other day, when you were away. Wirihana said, " The Court said, first of all, to Kemp, 'We consider it is not the correct thing for your name alone to be in this block.' " Mr. Cash then said, " I did not know that it was arranged that Kemp's name alone should go in." Kemp said, " Well, I am quite willing that Hunia's name should be in the block with mine." But it was not put in. Kemp then addressed the Court, and said he thought his name should go in, and all the other names come afterwards in a list. "Let my name be in. I know that the interests concerned belong to Hunia and the whole of the people, and whatever they agree shall be done with the land I will do. Well, Hunia, what do you say to that " ? Hunia said, "I do not understand the work done by Kemp; but since I have heard what has been said in Court, I can understand his motive." The Court then suggested to Hunia that his name should go in ; and Hunia said, " I object to be brought up here, and then my name being brought in in this way." Hunia got in a rage, and left the Court, saying, "Very well, let Kemp's name go in." He got very dark about the whole business. Is that true or false ? —lt is a lie. He never opened his mouth to me in the Court or to any one else. 270. Then he was cross-examined by me and he said this: "It was not told to me; I heard Kawana say that with my own ears. I was present." He said this also, " The list of 143 was proposed surreptitiously in the tent. Kawana Hunia was not present." Then he was asked, " Are you perfectly sure that Kemp offered to put Kawana's name in with his," and Wirihana Hunia said, " Kemp said to the Court, ' Very well, let Hunia's name go in along with mine and both our names be in,' but Hunia said he would not agree to it." Is that true ?—That is all false.