PARLIAMENTARY

Kumara Times, Issue 2804, 16 September 1885, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Friday, August 14,

ALLEGED DISQUALIFICATION OF MR. SEDDON. Mr Sutter: I hold that the honourable member for Kumara has come within the penal clauses of the Disqualification Act, and I hope that the Government and the House will allow the matter to be inquired into by a Committee. It would be satisfactory to this House to have the matter thoroughly inquired into. I have not had time to look into the papers thoroughly—some of them undated and unsigned—bnt a Committee would have time to do that. The clause in the Disqualification Act within which the honourable member for Kumara has come is the following clause in the Act of 1878: "Contractor" means a person who, either by himself, or directly or indirectly by or with others, but not as a member of a joint-stock company or any incorporated body, is interested in. the execution or employment of any contract or agreement entered into with her Majesty, or with any officer or department of the General Government, or with any person or persons for or on account of the public service of New Zealand, under which any public money above the sum of fifty pounds is payable directly or indirectly to such person in any one financial year. I hold that the honourable member for Kumara has come within that section. Motion made, and question proposed, " That all correspondence and copy of contract in connection with Kumara Sludge channel No. 2 be laid before this House."—(Mr Sutter.) Mr Stout: Perhaps the House would like me to explain this matter, as I have had a good deal to do with it, and am pretty intimate with the voluminous documents to which the honourable gentleman has referred, though I am afraid that the House has not been quite able to follow him. I I do not wish to go so far back as the year 1875 and give a complete history of this sludge-channel; but I may tell the House that there is on the Kumara Goldfield a sludge-channel into which a large number of miners send their tailings. The Government constructed this sludge-channel, and the Government also constructed water-races which the miners use, paying the Government for the water used. There was a mistake, I think, committed by the late Manager, Mr Gow,'who allowed too many persons to get rights to put their tailings into this sludge-channel. That was a gain to the Government, so far, because they got paid for each connection ; but the result was that very soon the sludge-channel became now and again blocked. The question then arose, What was to be done ? The rights had been granted ; but how were the miners to be satisfied ? The question resolved itself into this: as to whether a new channel was to be constructed, or the present one widened. The honourable member for Geraldine will bear me out in this : that he was continually worried in the matter for over two years. The suggestion he made, or rather the suggestion made to him, was that there should be a new sludge-channel constructed, and that the Government should give for the construction of the work water worth two or three thousand pounds. This was the same as giving cash, for the water was sold, and brought in a l'evenue to the Government. Then the matter came before the Government last session, and we proposed that we should give a subsidy in money direct. The House accepted that suggestion and voted a sum of £2OOO, as will he seen by a reference to the public works estimates of last session. My honourable colleague the Minister of Lands was at that time acting as Minister of Mines, and he gave the matter consideration as to the best way of giving this money to be expended ; but before the question was settled he left Wellington, and I undertook to look after the Mines Depaitment in his absence. When I came to look into the matter I found that Mr Gordon, the Engineer, estimated that this work would cost £IO,OOO. I said, "Well, I am not going to sanction a work which will cost £IO,OOO, when there is only £2OOO voted." I said that the local bodies or the owners of mining property must do the work themselves, for we could not be expected to make a sludge-channel at a cost of £IO,OOO. The correspondence, which has been only partially read, will show the position which the Government took up. Then, a large number of | miners who had certain lights, said that, if this second slud«e-channel were constructed, it would interfere with their tights, and that they would not be able to work. Ij pointed out that that was another ob- j

jectiou to proceeding with this work, as we were not going to be responsible fur damage done to these people. I need not go thiough all the correspondence on that point, but it will l>e sufficient to say that the honourable member for Kuinara stated that these people conld not be damaged. I then said that the Government were quite willing to give a subsidy provided that they were indemnified from all claims for damage done or alleged to be done. Then we went to Kumara, and, after seeing the work and hearing what the Manager had to say, we saw—the Minister of Mines and myself—that there whs a block in the sludge channel, and it was quite apparent that, if there was to be any value derived from the sludge-channel and the Government was to get any benefit from the existing water-race, something would have to be done. This was owing to the Government having permitted too many persons to acquire rights in the .sludgechannel. Indeed, Mr Gow publicly stated so on leaving Kumara a shoit time ago. What was the position 1 On the one hand we had the miners who protested against their rights bring interfered with ; and, on the otli'-sr, we had those who said that unless a new channel were constructed the whole goldfield would be destroyed, and that the rights of these persons would not be in any way interfered with. We said to the honourable member for Kumara, "You take up the position that these people cannot be injured. As a guarantee of your good faith you and some other responsible persons in Kumara must enter into a bond to indemnify those people from any injury happening to them. You must enter into a bond for £750 to these persona that no harm will result to them." The honourable member said that he was quite willing to do so if other per. sons would do so, and so it came about that Messrs Pearn, Morris, Boilase, Roth well, Mansfield, and Seddon entered into this bond with these people that they should sustain no injury. We have no contract with the honourable member for Kumara at all and no agreement with him. The contractors are Messrs Martin and Co. ; they are the persons who are making the sludgechannel ; bat, in order to get the Government out of any responsibility for injuring any person, these persons whom I have mentioned entered into this bond. I may say that, as a further security, we did not allow the name of the Minister of Mines or the Queen to be mentioned in the thing at all, for fear that these people, if they were injured, might sue the Government. We shall pay the subsidy of £2,500 to the persons whom the miners interested may appoint as trustees. An Hon. Member.—What is the work to cost? Mr Stout : The first contract is for £IBOO, but there will be other contracts ; but the House must understand that £2OOO is to be the limit of the Government liability. If any person will read the correspondence he will see that what we would not be a party to doing was this : asking Parliament to vote £2OOO for a work, then authorising a work which would cost £IO,OOO, and coming to Parliament for more money in another year. I say again that there is no contract with the Government, and no contract with the honourable member for Kumara. Mr W.J. Hurst: To whom is the £2OOO to be paid ? Mr Stoat: We pay the money to the persons who signed the bond, to be paid by them to Martin and Co.; but we have no contract with the honourjable member for Kumara. We do not pay a shilling until Martin has completed the work, and then on the certificate of our Engineer. What the honourable member for Gladstone was referring to was, that we wished to charge out of the vote the cost of supervision. So far as I know, the honourable member for Kumara has no interest in this sludge-channel. It is not a sludge-channel for the benefit of any individual at all. The honourable member for Geraldine, who was over it once, will know that Sludge-channel No. 2 was for the benefit of a number of mines on the goldfield. Mr Fisher : Who owns the sludgechannel when it is finished ? Mr Stout: No. 1, the Government. I do not know who owns No. 2. Honourable members will know that sludge-channels are used by a great number of mines. Mr Rolleston : Only for a certain number. Mr Stout: I do not know bow many mines will be drained. I have no objection to the honourable member's motion that the papers be laid on the table, but there will have to be time to copy them. Perhaps thit will be the best way, and if the hononrable gentleman wishes to make any further motion for a Committee or anything else he

can then do so. I again repeat that the Government has no contract whatever with the honourable member for Kumara. There was no contract even in writing ; and the reason why this bond was entered into was to relieve the Govetncne.it of any liability. W e said to the miners, one hundred or more of them, "You must select some persons to act as trustees, who wnl enter into this bond, and will relieve the Government i.f any responsibility with regard to chis slu(lge-chanl)e•. , ' —♦ MINES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. MANAGERS UNABLE TO AGREE. APPOINTMENT OF NEW MANAGERS. DISTRICT RAILWAY PURCHASING BILL. (from our own correspondent.] Wellington, September 16. The Conference on the Mines Act Amendment Bill sat for the second time yesterday, and broke up without coming to any agreement. The Managers for the Council insist on the keepin « of the miner's right at £l ; the Managers (Tole, Pyke, and Seddon) for the House insist on its being reduced to 10s. The Council, on the motion of the Hon. Mr Lahman, has ordered another conference. The House also ordered another conference the same night. Being appointed, the Conference meets at 12 o'clock this day. In the House yesterday, the District Railway Purchasing Bill came on for consideration, and a stormy debate ensued. Ultimately this bill was carried by 37 votes to 27. The House, by striking out the main lines of railways and other votes saved .£500,000. Now, for purchasing speculative and non-paying private branch lines, they carry a bill to spend .£600,000. The feeling on the matter is very strong, and it is thought that the Council will throw out the bill. The Supreme Court Reporting Bill was thrown out. The Waimea Plains Railways Rating Bill was committed, several clauses passed, and progress was reported.